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Please pardon my ignorance but I need clarification and a definition. For a “ numbers matching” C2 restoration, does that require ALL original parts that have been remachined/ repaired etc? If I replace the transmission, shifter, brakes, suspension, gear box, clutch, with NEW parts that match in type the old, from dealers like Corvette America/Top Flight or Ecklers, is that numbers non matching?
The general use of the term refers to the drivetrain, engine, trans, rear end . . specifically the engine and trans will have a partial vin# which should match the vin# of the car, with the rear end having date codes that match the build date of the vehicle. There are many date coded parts on a c2. like horns, headlight motors, alternator, etc that to be correct would again have date codes that would line up with the build date of the car. Some reproduction parts are like originals but some have slight variations that mark them as not original. So when most people use the term "numbers matching" if refers to the engine matching the vin# of the car but the term means different things to different people.
The general use of the term refers to the drivetrain, engine, trans, rear end . . specifically the engine and trans will have a partial vin# which should match the vin# of the car, with the rear end having date codes that match the build date of the vehicle. There are many date coded parts on a c2. like horns, headlight motors, alternator, etc that to be correct would again have date codes that would line up with the build date of the car. Some reproduction parts are like originals but some have slight variations that mark them as not original. So when most people use the term "numbers matching" if refers to the engine matching the vin# of the car but the term means different things to different people.
The key to numbers matching is if the stamps were done at factory when the car was built or doing the restoration decades later. That's when it turns to fraud
For some sellers, "numbers matching" only means car's title and VIN plate match.
May be one in a museum, but, you're not going to find a car with ALL original parts - things wear out, break, etc over time.
NCRS Flight judging is based on "APPEARANCE" of Originality - Judging reflecting theoriginal parts that came on a particular Corvette, is "Bowtie" judging (these cars are NOT restored).
If you are contemplating doing a "NCRS" type restoration, "APPEARANCE" of replacement parts may differ from an original part in terms of Configuration, Date, Completeness, Installation, and Finish. Deviations from original is what generates judging deductions. Suggest you always do a "cost/benefit" analysis on any parts or restoration work. Judging points gained or lost versus cost. Pursuit of perfection can get really expensive.
Exterior and interior color/fabric, production date etc are identified on car's Trim Tag. First make sure you have real Trim and VIN tags. No point striving for originality on a car with a bogus Trim Tag.
If you don't know for sure, post a good quality photo of that trim tag. You'll get feedback on this forum.
The key to numbers matching is if the stamps were done at factory when the car was built or doing the restoration decades later. That's when it turns to fraud
For some sellers, "numbers matching" only means car's title and VIN plate match.
May be one in a museum, but, you're not going to find a car with ALL original parts - things wear out, break, etc over time.
NCRS Flight judging is based on "APPEARANCE" of Originality - Judging reflecting theoriginal parts that came on a particular Corvette, is "Bowtie" judging (these cars are NOT restored).
If you are contemplating doing a "NCRS" type restoration, "APPEARANCE" of replacement parts may differ from an original part in terms of Configuration, Date, Completeness, Installation, and Finish. Deviations from original is what generates judging deductions. Suggest you always do a "cost/benefit" analysis on any parts or restoration work. Judging points gained or lost versus cost. Pursuit of perfection can get really expensive.
Exterior and interior color/fabric, production date etc are identified on car's Trim Tag. First make sure you have real Trim and VIN tags. No point striving for originality on a car with a bogus Trim Tag.
If you don't know for sure, post a good quality photo of that trim tag. You'll get feedback on this forum.
"Numbers Matching" used to mean original engine, transmission, rear end, etc.
Now it doesn't mean much of anything.
It's because of this forum that I didn't get all wrapped up in numbers matching. With certain other cars I have owned, yeah, I could tell you, based on assembly date, build location, and part prefix, absolutely what "numbers" were supposed to match and cross ref to a VIN. On a C2 that to a degree of course but when people get to the 'numbers' that match on a C2 I breathe a sigh of relief rather than start sweating.
It's because of this forum that I didn't get all wrapped up in numbers matching. With certain other cars I have owned, yeah, I could tell you, based on assembly date, build location, and part prefix, absolutely what "numbers" were supposed to match and cross ref to a VIN. On a C2 that to a degree of course but when people get to the 'numbers' that match on a C2 I breathe a sigh of relief rather than start sweating.
Thanks. So I guess since my transmission which is rebuilt but otherwise original is a numbers match
For some sellers, "numbers matching" only means car's title and VIN plate match.
Mapman
Not sure I follow that, all it means is the person is selling the car they are claiming they are selling
VIN and Title would make every car a numbers matching
Not sure I follow that, all it means is the person is selling the car they are claiming they are selling
VIN and Title would make every car a numbers matching
Good point. And if the VIN didn't match the title....
Thanks. So I guess since my transmission which is rebuilt but otherwise original is a numbers match
Clevans
"Numbers" in case of your transmission, would be partial VIN stamp matching partial VIN stamp on engine block. All consistent with car's VIN.
This is where things get confusing with re-stamps. Search on this forum will produce discussions and examples of re stamps (mostly engine block stamp pads).
Re-stamps (usually blocks) can be used to change a car into something it never was originally. That's why re-stamps and broach marks get attention.
Good point. And if the VIN didn't match the title....
Well my car certainly matches the title and is clean. The engine is original but rebuilt. Transmission original cover with new gears. So I guess it’s “ numbers matching “ from that perspective. But I want to be honest. I was ripped off and don’t want to perpetuate it
"Numbers" in case of your transmission, would be partial VIN stamp matching partial VIN stamp on engine block. All consistent with car's VIN.
This is where things get confusing with re-stamps. Search on this forum will produce discussions and examples of re stamps (mostly engine block stamp pads).
Re-stamps (usually blocks) can be used to change a car into something it never was originally. That's why re-stamps and broach marks get attention.
Mapman
No restamps on mine. Just rebuilt with matching parts best I could from reputable parts dealers. I just want to be honest with people to whom I’m selling
Well my car certainly matches the title and is clean. The engine is original but rebuilt. Transmission original cover with new gears. So I guess it’s “ numbers matching “ from that perspective. But I want to be honest. I was ripped off and don’t want to perpetuate it
If you play with old cars enough you will at some time get the short end of a stick. It's certainly happened to me, with big sticks. And I won't ask you to be happy about it. But.
If at the end of the day, you have something you can enjoy or you can look back and be proud or satisfied, or know you did something right, it's not all that bad. And ending the cycle of let's say 'mis-truths' is a thing to congratulate you on. Lots of guys wouldn't do it, believe me. You having that outlook makes you one of the Good Car Guys in my book.
If you play with old cars enough you will at some time get the short end of a stick. It's certainly happened to me, with big sticks. And I won't ask you to be happy about it. But.
If at the end of the day, you have something you can enjoy or you can look back and be proud or satisfied, or know you did something right, it's not all that bad. And ending the cycle of let's say 'mis-truths' is a thing to congratulate you on. Lots of guys wouldn't do it, believe me. You having that outlook makes you one of the Good Car Guys in my book.
Thanks! I try to be one of the good guys. Life’s too short and everyone answers to someone or something in the end!
Well my car certainly matches the title and is clean. The engine is original but rebuilt. Transmission original cover with new gears. So I guess it’s “ numbers matching “ from that perspective. But I want to be honest. I was ripped off and don’t want to perpetuate it
As mentioned by others Numbers Matching can be varying degrees of that term.
In the case of an engine, numbers matching refers to the number stamped on the block and the VIN underneath your glove compartment.
Rebuilt does not affect an engine "unless an engine has been decked". Decking an engine changes the broach marks.
Broach marks are those lines that go across the deck as the deck is machined. Broach marks on an original engine go from Cylinders 1-7 and 2-8 or 8-2, 7-1
Broach marks after a new decking run from intake manifold to exhaust manifold.
Decking can remove the VIN.
Transmission has VIN and pumpkin has a date that is consistent with the build date of the car. The guts of the transmission do not matter
The rear end should be within 3-4 weeks of the production date and you should be able to see the Date, its stamped into the pumpkin like this
CE means 4.11 Gears, this is my pumpkin and I have 3.70's in it. This also does not affect "numbers Matching"
Then you get numbers/bolt matching
Which is someone that has a survivor that has ensured he/she kept all the right bolts or someone like myself who restored a car that has all the correct bolts, nuts, washers, (hopefully)etc
As mentioned by others Numbers Matching can be varying degrees of that term.
In the case of an engine, numbers matching refers to the number stamped on the block and the VIN underneath your glove compartment.
Rebuilt does not affect an engine "unless an engine has been decked". Decking an engine changes the broach marks.
Broach marks are those lines that go across the deck as the deck is machined. Broach marks on an original engine go from Cylinders 1-7 and 2-8 or 8-2, 7-1
Broach marks after a new decking run from intake manifold to exhaust manifold.
Decking can remove the VIN.
Transmission has VIN and pumpkin has a date that is consistent with the build date of the car. The guts of the transmission do not matter
The rear end should be within 3-4 weeks of the production date and you should be able to see the Date, its stamped into the pumpkin like this
CE means 4.11 Gears, this is my pumpkin and I have 3.70's in it. This also does not affect "numbers Matching"
Then you get numbers/bolt matching
Which is someone that has a survivor that has ensured he/she kept all the right bolts or someone like myself who restored a car that has all the correct bolts, nuts, washers, (hopefully)etc
Numbers matching?
