Long story, but recently I found out my 427/390 was a counterfeit. I tore the engine down to have it rebuilt and after they hot tanked it, they discovered the JB Weld used to counterfeit the casting number melted away. The block was correctly dated, but was a 396!! It was crushing, because it was sold as original matching numbers and even fooled 4 NCRS judges.

After I recovered from the news I was able to find a date correct 427/390 with a clean pad. I am going to register the car and document it with the NCRS that my engine is NOT original, but is date correct, but I do want to have it stamped.

Does anyone know of anyone in Arizona, preferably close to Tucson, that has experience with stamping engines?

Thanks.

 

It’s to have everything appear as original. My local NCRS chapter knows about it and I’m straight forward with it, I’m not trying to fool anyone.

From what I have read and heard, it’s a pretty common practice. The key is being upfront and honest. I never plan to sell car, I got it from my dad who passed away a couple years ago. Sadly he thought it was an original engine too.

 

There are very , very few places that can stamp an engine correctly. If done wrong it's the kiss of death. Tread lightly, do your homework. Not many on the forum will approve what you want to do.

 

Thanks for the words of advice. I was under the impression it was a common practice as long as you registered it with the NCRS and was upfront about it.

 

The problem is after you or your family sells the car to a dealer or to someone else someday and it gets pond off to the next person as real. I would not stamp anything on an engine block. In some states it is a felony. You should also go back after the person who sold you the car. If in fact, they told you it was a number matching original engine. You can employ the help of Bruce Shaw. He goes after all of these types of misrepresentations.

 

I understand how dealers could do that, but if you registered your car with NCRS as having a non-original, but date correct engine, I would hope the buyer would do their homework and the dealer wouldn’t be so malicious. I can see how it’s a slippery slope.

Initially I thought about contacting the dealership that sold it to my dad 32 years ago, but the owner is in his early 80’s now, so what is done is done. I did however, do more research and contacted the previous owner to him, and he was honest and told me that he was the one who did it. I thanked him for being honest and just decided to move on.

After the responses I’ve received so far, I’ll give it more thought. I honestly thought from my readings, that it was common practice. Doesn’t seem so. I’ll make a post on the NCRS forums too and get some more feedback. I definitely don’t want to make an informed decision on something like this.

 

Many NCRS judges are very good at detecting restamped blocks. Problem is they don't judge the "originality" of the stamp, just the "appearance" of being original. Thus those four judges may not have been "fooled" on the stamping - casting number / date sounds like a different story though. But in the end the same thing was done with the casting numbers - made to appear to be something it wasn't and sold as "real". Somce folks would disclose those changes, others would not be so honest.

Engine "restamping" is a reality. There are some out there that do it very well and is hard to distinguish from original. If you are going to have your car judged you'd get credit for the correctly cast and dated block and take a hit in points on the pad if left blank. Still, even if the rest of the car is in order you could still top flight.

There are so many questionable C2 big blocks out there being pawned off as "real". As others have said - it's when the car is sold that this becomes an issue. Why not take any question about the block out of the equation and leave the pad blank - that's what I would do. You plan on keeping the car - drive it and enjoy it. Personally I'd rather have a clean pad then a bad restamp.

Tom

PS: NCRS doesn't "register" cars. They need to go through the judging process. Many would be buyers could care less about NCRS when they are looking. Plus NCRS does not give out judging info to anyone other then the owner.

 

Tom,

All very good points. The stamp pad carries 50 points total for NCRS Flight Judging, so yes the car could still Top Flight without it. You are also correct that only the owner gets the score sheets.

I did however think that the NCRS tracked the cars once you signed up. I’m new to all this so I’m still learning. This is the website I guess I was thinking of. https://www.c2registry.org
I need to log back in and see if you actually input whether your engine is original verse date correct.

My car is going to get judged by my local NCRS chapter in the Fall, so I’ll reach out to them for advice as well.

 

Why even stamp it. Build the motor and move on.

 

C2 Registry is independent of NCRS.

NCRS maintains a database of the cars they judge as well as any awards or disqualifications the car received.

No need to let the world know about your engine - if asked then respond in kind. Always disclose to any potential buyers.

Good luck with judging. I'd leave the pad alone - just my opinion - and take the points hit. Just make sure the rest of the car is in order and you should be good to go. Either way, you'll learn a lot about the car and the process.

At the end of the day just enjoy the car and don't fuss over the numbers.

Tom

 

Restamping blocks is quite real and common, but it is also frowned upon by a lot of people, mainly because it's usually done to misrepresent a car. You may not have any nefarious reasons for restamping the block, and may even advertise the car as such when you eventually sell it, but what about the next guy and the one after that? We all know what they say about good intentions and the road to Hell.

This and...

This.

If you take the car for judging, and a judge determines that the block has been restamped, the judging chairman should make a note in the NCRS' database about the restamped block. This is all that the NCRS will do. They're not going to make a note if you call or email them to tell them, they won't issue a certificate or anything to you documenting it, and they won't include it in their database unless it's discovered during the judging process.

I've been in the Corvette hobby for almost 50 years, and knew people restamping blocks in the 70's. Back then none of us really thought much of it, but then, not as much was known about the stamping process back then. Besides, back then an undetected restamped block might have make a $10,000 car a $10,500 or $11,000 car, while today an undetected restamp can make a $75,000 car worth $150,000.

If you want to go forward with stamping the block, the person you want to find is in Wisconsin. He'll restamp your block, sell you one already stamped, or rent you a gang holder with the digits you need installed in the holder, ready for you to stamp it yourself. Keep in mind there's more to a block stamp then just the two stampings themselves. The pad, or more correctly, the appearance of the machined surface of the pad are as important, if not more so, then the configuration of the stamped information.

 

also when they find a restamped block, they will look very closer and make sure the car didn't grow 100 cubic inches in the last 50 odd years. and if they determine it is your day will get a whole lot worse than loosing 50 points. don't open a pandoras box of problems. leave it alone!

 

Togaf16

I don't quite understand your situation. Is your car a 1965 that originally came with a 396? Or is it a 1966/67 that originally came with a 427?

I'm reading that you actually have a 396 that had been JB Welded into a 427 casting number. If so, then that block is NOT correctly dated for a 427.

First thing evaluated on Engine Block is casting number. If that casting number is incorrect, then 350 point Standard deduction and judges move on.

Restamping that block will have NO EFFECT on judging outcome - judges will never get to that step.

In order: A block is first evaluated for correct casting number.

Second: If casting number is ok, then block is evaluated for correct casting date within 6 months prior to car's build date.

Third: If casting date is ok, then block stamp pad is evaluated for engine plant stamping and engine assembly date (and VIN stamp in your case).
For Mid-Year cars, this step amounts to 50 points. Half for Assembly stamp and half for VIN stamp. (i.e. 25 points each)

Hence on your found 427 block, if every thing is correct to this point (including assembly date), then your issue would involve only VIN. (Loss of 25 points)

Restamping that block will involve removing a correct assembly date stamp and VIN and restamping both. Restamps likely to be detected given alteration to stamp pad clearing original assembly and VIN stamps.

Detection (likely) will result in a 50 point deduction.

Fourth: PLUS, next step will involve judges evaluating stamp pad surface for paint, etc, and normal production machining marks (broach marks). Detection of non original machining marks is a 38 point deduction.

Bottom line: Everything correct except VIN stamp - 25 point deduction. Detected non typical assembly date/VIN stamps and absence of production machining marks - 88 point deduction.

Above evaluation method is all covered in NCRS Standard Deduction Guideline #1, Engine Block Cylinder Cases.

Mapman

 

Togaf16

NCRS does not "register" car's engine as not original.

I believe you are relating to an approach that Bloomington Gold uses when judging cars.

Mapman

 

Mapman,

To clear things up, my car is an early (Oct 66) 1967 427 L36. The engine in the car that was sold to my dad was a counterfeit 427. The casting number, date and stamp pad all look very real and legit. What wasn’t real was the casting number. It melted off during the hot tank. The casting date was real and correct time period, but wrong engine (396). The stamp pad fooled a lot of people too, but obviously it was a re-stamp.

I have since found a correct casting number 427/390 with a casting date within 6 months of my car assembly date. The block has been decked, therefore the pad is clean and there are no broach marks. So as it sits, probably -83 points.

After reading and talking, some say it’s acceptable to re-stamp the block as long as you are forthcoming with the NCRS judges and whoever you sell the car to. As you can read above, there are those who think I shouldn’t stamp the block. I respect that, and I am not making any quick decisions. I’m starting to lean towards just leaving the pad blank and accepting the deduction of 83 points. First, I wont have to defend myself every time I tell someone the engine isn’t original to the car. Second, I don’t want to run the risk of trying to re-stamp it and have it messed up. The engine has cost me a lot of money and is date correct from the carb, to the heads, block, and tranny. The tranny is actually original to the car and today I decided to drop it and rebuild it since we already have the engine out.

When I set out to restore this car after my dad passed away, my intention was to just get it running again and have it repainted. My dad and I were both under the assumption everything was original. Well, we were fooled and too much of the car is original/date correct to restomod it.

So when it’s all put back together in a month or so, I’ll have a 67 427/390 that is all date correct per the NCRS Judging manual. Yeah the wheels are not original, but they are correct, as is the windshield, hoses, calipers, dust shields, rear diff, spare tire hub, radiator, headlights, and every other component under the hood. I’m proud of it and intend to drive it every Sunday with my family.

Eventually I intend to have the body pulled off and repainted. Then comes the discussion of whether I paint it to NCRS Top Flight standards with orange peel and lacquer paint, or showroom with base and clear. Most shops I talk to say go with base and clear, it does look great. That discussion is for a different thread.

Thank you for your response. This is a good place to get honest feedback.
Here are a few pictures of the 396, made to look like a 427.

 

A photo of the casting number after it was hot tanked. Sorry but I couldn’t find a photo from before.

 

Hi. Sorry to learn about your situation, unfortunately it happens way too often in this Corvette hobby of ours, which I have been in over 45 years now.

Before you waste any more of your time and money, even thinking about having this car judged at an NCRS meet, you better make sure that the VIN and Trim Tags are legitimate. The first think the judges will check are these two tags, and if they don't pass the mustard, your car will be flagged and banned from any future judging. From my personal viewing experience over the last 45 years, quite often when someone has their engine pad restamped, or the casting number changed with JB Weld, that is a major red flag that they might have also done a color change with the Trim Tag.

Post a photo of both tags if you would like some valuable opinions from the Forum members here, who have been in this hobby many years.

Good luck,

Steve

 

Sorry to hear about your situation, Interesting you still want to restamp it someone is going to go thru the same situation you are currently in some day? No??
I’m not saying you are going to miss represent it to someone but if your heirs or someone forgets about this situation & sells it or it becomes the next Barn Find & gets sold somewhere it’s gonna burn someone someday..

Your Car you decide..
good luck
Chalie

 

Green over saddle I don't think you would have to worry about anyone faking that

 

I think it looks great. Everyone has different taste.