OK, I have inspected most of the 66's birdcage and the following photos are by far the more severe of the damage:

Hre's the front passenger side hinge pillar (lower)



Here's the driver's side:



How much work will be required to fix this right? The bottom rails seem to be in very good shape on both sides but the lower pillars... well, you see them. :banghead: Do I need to cut and add metal? What's required here?



[Modified by Islander21, 6:56 PM 12/13/2003]

 

Adding metal is one way of doing it. The hardest part will be getting them off to work on them without screwing them up worse than they are now. I have a set with the cross-car brace still on them that I was going to use on my car, but then found a set without almost any rust. The set I have is not bad, but did have some rust. I got them off of the u-channel intact and then sandblasted them and rustproofed them. They are in one of the first set of pictures I posted re: building the kit vet. If I sold them to someone I would want that person to actually look at them, which is sort of hard to do from Florida. If you aren't able to rehab yours, let me know.

 

I think I would try to replace the towers. I know it's more painful and more time consuming. I think I would remove the spot welds from the windshield plate. Then find the other 20 or 30 spot welds, however the channel cover will have to be cut to get to the sides, probably same on floor board side.

I just happen to have one, so if you need any pictures to help in your approach let me know. I can shoot some pics for you. This is an extra if you decide to go with the replacement idea I have the parts.





[Modified by johns_vette, 12:09 AM 12/14/2003]

 

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but I thought it might help...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2447040675

 

I have a question: are the hinge pillars supposed to be square (perpendicular) to the bottom u-rails or should they have a slight lean to the rear end of the cage? Mine have a slight lean back but the cowl fiberglass section is square to the rails, can anyone comfirm this either way?

 

I measured several of these while doing my car and according to a digital level, the top leans back toward the rear at an angle of 87 degrees if you put the level on the rear part of the pillar.

 

Ahhhh, thank you!!! It looks like mine is OK, it has about a 5 degree backward tilt as measured by my analog eyes and water bubble level. :party:

 

Islander21,

Without knowing just how bad the bottom sill channel is, either way, here is what I would do. Remove the cowl/plenum, remove hinge pillar trims (glass), drill out the spot welds from the window pillars to hinge pillars. Cut away the glass over the sill channel, top and sides to expose all the welds of the hinge pillar to sill. Drill the welds out of the hinge pillar to sill channel..............Now then, take a good look at the steel still left in sill channel. In my opinion, I would stay away from cutting off the sill channel in back of the hinge pillar if you can, again if you can. If needed, I would weld new steel into the existing sill channel while maintaining its integrity rearward and forward to the front body mount holes, if you can. Remember, BEFORE cutting any glass, get yourself a plan, a RE-BONDING PLAN!!!!!Some guys just start wacking and then discover after the focused fix, that they could of just separated here or cut there and would have saved TONS of time and money. When you do start cutting, just cut the least amount of glass you can(providing its in your re-bonding plan) to expose your focused fix,(hinge pillar from sill) and(new hinge pillar to sill installed) you can always cut more later. Tip, be real careful when removing the hinge pillar trims from their bases where they are bonded to the sill glass, I see yours are still on. In fact it may be wise to cut the sill fiber glass back(rearward) several several inches behind the hinge pillar, so you can remove the hinge pillar trim panel with the sill trim. This will also expose more of your steel sill channel for a look see. You can take your steel putty knife and separate the bond where the sill trim meets the under body pan. Take your "sharpie pen"(one of your best tools) and draw lines on the glass where you PLAN to cut or separate and then step back and study your proposed cut etc. This is where you start putting together your re-bonding plan. Myself and others that have this area exposed can also draw some lines, where we think would be a good place to separate glass to expose the hinge pillar welds and post them.
Anyway just my 3.5 cents, good luck.

Craig ;)

BTW, If you don't have one, you will need a 1/2" spot weld remover. Machine shop supply houses have them and EASTWOOD has them. You can keep re-sharping them yourself, just besure and keep a relief angle in your grind going and another tip is, drill a small small pilot hole in the center of each weld, this speeds up the drilling of each weld with the tool.

and yes, it's normal to have the hinge pillar welded at the angle you guys have noted. ;)



[Modified by Cmacsvette, 4:11 PM 12/15/2003]

 

OK, I did not get to blast but I did clean up the areas quite a bit, here is the passenger's side pillar, it's a little bit fuzzy but you get the idea:



Here is the driver's side pillar, ate straight through, left behind some weak metal:



I think the thing to do, which will produce the best result and give me the peace of mind I want, is to remove the birdcage from the body and repair and rust-proof it. It won't take that much more money and I'll still have plenty of time to complete this project in. Besides, 10 years down the road I wont be fretting about the birdcage falling apart. Here is a picture of what I plan on doing. I will cut the floorpan from one side to the other right at the pillars to remove the cowl area and then I will attempt to separate the rocker panel bonds to the floorpan (those are the arrows along the bonding seam). I have several repairs to make to the underside/rear of the tub so it will be easier to do with the body out in the open. Any ideas or feedback would be nice. :)

 

Islander21,

I take it, by the angle of the last pic, your car is a vert. (so at least you have less cage to deal with). The following is just my opinion. I would not cut your floor pan. I would first remove the glass sill trims where you have taped them. (bonding point) This will allow you to see the rest of the sill channel and lock pillars. If your lock pillars are OK and do not look like the bottom of your hinge pillars and the sill channel rearward looks OK, you could leave the cage in the car. You can treat the cage at this point. On the other hand you are very close to removing the cage at the rear, less rivets, anyway. Now, to the front. In my opinion, I'd separate the bond, where the under body panel meets the cowl/plenum. This way you can remove cowl/plenum, all in one piece. Of course the cowl will need to be removed from the bottom of the windshield frame too. If you look through the square holes in the inside of the lower WS frame, you'll see the rivets that hold the vertical portion of the surround bonding strip to the WS channel frame. Then you'll have to remove the pop rivets that hold the top side of the surround bonding strip to the WS frame. This way, surround bonding strip comes off with plenum or you can separate the surround bonding strip from the plenum first, before removal. After resto of the cage, this bonding strip must be attached to the WS frame first with rivets on the vertical side. The plenum will bond over the top of this point. You also have four bolts to remove that hold the plenum to the hinge pillars. (two on each side, keep track of the shims too) You will need to remove the six rivets on the upper side of plenum that also attach to the WS frame, plus the four rivets that hold the windshield wiper post brackets to the WS frame. (two on each side, on top of the bracket.) If your going for it, which sounds like you are, I'd much rather rebond the cowl/plenum to its original point at the under body panel, then to cut the floor panel across. Again, just my opinion.

Craig ;)



[Modified by Cmacsvette, 8:39 PM 1/6/2004]

 

Craig,

Yep, it's a roadster and thank God for that regarding removing the cage! When you say: "Then you'll have to remove the pop rivets that hold the top side of the surround bonding strip to the WS frame." are you talking about the famous "whalebone" bonding strips? Thanks for the tip on the shims, any special tricks or tips to separating the bonded areas (aside from remembering to remove the rivets!) so as to not seriously damage or destroy the surfaces? :smash:

 

Islander21,

Yes, with your surround off, you can see where the cowl/plenum is bonded to the vertical section of the bonding strip.This bonding strip plays a two part role. It's a 90 degree strip which raps around the top front corner of your lower WS frame to bond the cowl vertical and the surround on the top. You can separate the cowl from it and leave the strip on the WS frame. Either way, you will want to remove this bonding strip from the cage to do a complete resto on the cage, if this is your plan. If you go back to one of your last topics on birdcage rust, I left a pic showing the WS frame without this bonding strip attached and also note the solid rivets holding the cowl to the WS frame.

Removing panels from bonding points are not that hard, just have a little patience. I like using a putty knife. I use a SST, 1 1/4 size knife. If I'm un-doing a long bond, I'll use two of them, working them together. The Home
Depot have them over in the paint section. These knives can take a beating. Most likely, you have already noticed our boys at the factory who built these cars, have smeared the extra adhesive at the bonding points anyway they could to get it to lay flat and then they didn't always do that. To help along the separation of two bonded panels, (like your under body panel to cowl, etc. and where there is no bonding strips) you need to grind out some of this excess adhesive at these over lap joints. It's nice to have a definite edge to start your putty knife under. Don't be afraid to pound on the end of the knife, but at the same time, do not apply any more force then needed. Start another knife inches from that one and do it again. You will hear the glass start to separate. I like using a die grinder, a pneumatic cut off tool and a Dremel. These are all great tools for removing that excess adhesive from bonding joints. Don't forget both sides of the bond. ie See where you have taped off your proposed de-bond point..........well don't forget to look under the body at that joint. You will see a nice joint there to insert the kinfe also, just try to help out the separation by removing some of that excess adhesive when you see it. Again, just my techniques.

Craig ;)

 

the rocker covers where you have the tape line come off easy. drill out the soft rivits and gentley pull the seam apart. the fiberglass is not bonded to the steel just rivits. the blind rivits can be had from dr rebuild or paragon. all you need is a body dolly and a air hammer with the right bit to put the rivits back in. as for the cage it self. you will find that under the pillar is also rusted out. be for you go cutting any steel around that pillar make a simple fixure from the top hinge bollts to the point where the conv. top bolts on. 1\2 inch tubeing works just fine then go from the same top hinge bolts to the steel rocker it self. this way you avoid the cage moveing when you cut it up. use the fixture to line every thing back up. you can check your work with a tape measure. keep in mind that when you weld anything it moves so a solid fixture is always the way to go when replacing any steel member. every body part on that car depends on that cage being right. so think before you cut and be carefull. by the way take the time to seam seal all the seams where the firewall is rivited to the cage. this is where they like to leak water. use a good two part seam sealer you can get in any autobody store.ps if you need help email me and i will give you my phone number so i can talk to you . im not that good with this comp. stuff.

 

Thanks for the feedback, folks. I won't be doing anything until after the Orlando NCRS event Jan 23-25 (any of you going?). There I'll be shoping for some parts that I will need to repair the body with. I'm also going to ask for references for a shop in Central Florida that can handle the birdcage repair.

Once I do start the process I'll post pictures and ask more questions.

 

I have asked elsewhere on the forum, but is there any way, for certain, to know whether or not a midyear has rust in the birdcage - especially as shown here at the bottom of the hinge pillar and also at the bottom of the lock pillar? I have now heard about removing the glove box door, and maybe the kick panels, to see rust in the hinge pillars, but what about the door lock pillars?
I am shopping for a split window and spent some time at CnV in Phoenix toady. The salesman there told me that the only way to avoid the birdcage rust is to buy a southern vehicle. Seems like there should be some way to detect the rust without disassembling the vehicle - especially a problem for the lock pillar.
I would hate to shell out $35-40K only to find out I have a major unseen rust problem.
Any tips?
Thanks

 

Tucsonjwt,

Wish I could help you there, but my car started out as only a shell so I would not know what to take off to ge to view the area cleanly.

 

tucsonjwt,

You can view the lock pillars from the inside, after removing the vinyl trim covers that cover them. Mirrors with a bright flashlight works good to look up inside of a lock pillar from the inside, on the back side of the lock pillar. Also after removing kick panels, you can use a mirror with a bright flashlight to look up inside of a hinge pillar. Without removing a glove box, you can peak up and catch a little bit of the lower windshield frame and a little bit of the base of the windshield side frame, at least enough to either make you go on or call it off on this one. With the GB out, you can see more. Check the inside of the gutters to see if their sealed all the way around. Check the gutters at the rear, where they terminate over the lock pillar, for sealant, dental mirrors work good here. Diff. size mirrors and penn size flashlights will be some of your best tools, when sneaking up on rust.

Craig :)

 

Thanks for the info. I never had those lock pillar trim covers off. How is that removal done, exactly. I suspect that sellers will not like my stripping off trim from the inside of their SWC unless I know what I am doing.

 

tucsonjwt,


I hear what your saying, but on the other hand, I'm guessing the seller knows the value of these cars and you as a buyer the same. Your getting ready to lay out some major bucks here and I would think, if the seller is motivated, that he or she would understand. If the seller has been around midyears for awhile or even just owned this one, I bet ya they have heard the rusty frame issue, the rusty birdcage issue and etc. They may not want to bring it up, because it's a sour topic and they don't want to kill a sale here. This is just my opinion.

There is only two screws that hold each one of those panels on. My suggestion is to ask them to remove them or both of you meet at a select shop and have a full meal deal inspection done. I realize this can be very uncomfortable for a buyer to request this, but just put the seller in your shoes, what would they want?..............most likely the same as you. They also would want to know what their buying. The lock pillars in my book are just one area of concern, there are several, serveral other areas to be concerned about too. Again, if they are motivated and have nothing to hide, I would think they would want to work with you. I don't know how far your into this sale or what kind of buyer/seller relationship has been established, but if none of the above is negotiable with the seller, I hate to sound harsh here, but I'd be walking away from it. Again, just my opinion.

Craig ;)



[Modified by Cmacsvette, 7:05 AM 1/12/2004]

 

Thanks. I have a few SWCs I am checking on - all out of state. I'll make my list and buy the mirrors and flashlights, get my Nolan Adams book, before I buy the airline tickets.