Suspension / Handling Questons.
Race Director
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From: In Dreams There Is Truth Ohio
Originally Posted by Breezer
GDaina said it was just posted. Where?
You don't know what D.P. stands for? What do they teach you in school?
Last edited by GDaina; Mar 5, 2006 at 11:07 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Austin Texas
Yes, the old dog C-3's can hang in there once properly set up. We see C-3's right up there at the top times at NCCC high speed auto-cross events. It's more about tires, motor and driver than high-tech. suspension. 
Race Director
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From: In Dreams There Is Truth Ohio
Originally Posted by Breezer
What is a D.P. transplant?
Harry Truman was the man...even if he didn't have a college education...
http://www.answers.com/topic/mccarran-walter-act
Race Director
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From: In Dreams There Is Truth Ohio
Originally Posted by big_G
Yes, the old dog C-3's can hang in there once properly set up. We see C-3's right up there at the top times at NCCC high speed auto-cross events. It's more about tires, motor and driver than high-tech. suspension.
as they shame most of the C4/c5 drivers. Nelson Ledges is a 2.2 mile road coarse, the front section has some nice tight right and left handers the back section a tight 180 the 3/4 mile straight where you can go flat out, a quick stab on the break to get through a kink that shrinks going all out at 140-150, then stand on the brakes, big time to make a 90 left hander, then get on it to get through a right handed 135 and accross the start/finish..total time....around 77-78 seconds.
Race Director
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Originally Posted by GDaina
Cool video...the C3 Breezed past the C5's as if they were standing still...the ricer, hung in there for a while, but when they hit the banks the dude was toast....
Back 23 years ago,the big deal for us autocrossing C3's was blowing off those Porsche 911's....We once had a Corvette/Porsche event....one where we set the course,and one where they did..got those suckers both times..and that club never run us again..
Race Director
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From: In Dreams There Is Truth Ohio
Originally Posted by rihwoods
I think owner of that C3 is 72 Ray....he put alot of sweat into that vette..and it has paid off...did work himself...
Back 23 years ago,the big deal for us autocrossing C3's was blowing off those Porsche 911's....We once had a Corvette/Porsche event....one where we set the course,and one where they did..got those suckers both times..and that club never run us again..
Back 23 years ago,the big deal for us autocrossing C3's was blowing off those Porsche 911's....We once had a Corvette/Porsche event....one where we set the course,and one where they did..got those suckers both times..and that club never run us again..
Corvette Cleveland did until recently, held Corvette, Porche Challenge at Nelsons..there are some good running Porches, SCCA licensed. Their top guns were no match for ours.
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Race Director
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I missed going to the SCCA National Tour here this weekend...(San Diego)..wanted to go watch some friends run...one finished 3rd in class last year at Kansas finals..
Interesting is most entries here this weekend were running Kumho's...
Interesting is most entries here this weekend were running Kumho's...
Intermediate
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Rihwoods sent me the video and I watched it. It was nice to see. However, the C3 blew by them on a straightaway and not through the turns. It also appeared that those 2 C5 drivers were not even trying or god awful drivers. Who knows what their credentials were? I never said that a C3 cannot be made to handle well. I only stated that it would take more than tires and shocks to do it. I am sure that the C3 driver has done much more than that if he can legitimately compete with C5 and C6 vettes in handling.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,254
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From: Edinburgh
[QUOTE=Breezer]A 40 year old design is good as long as it has good tires? A rack and pinion steering modification is the best improvement for handling? The rack affects steering quality, not handling. QUOTE]
Sorry I'm coming back late on this, I've been travelling the last couple of days.
So steering quality has nothing to do with handling!!! Well thats novel!!
Steeroids or more correctly rack & pinion has the advantage over re-circulating ball steering in that you loose the wandering and vagueness when the steering is centred allowing the car to be placed more accurately as you approach and begin to turn in to a corner. It also helps to reduce oversteer when applying opposite lock on exiting the corner.
Sorry I'm coming back late on this, I've been travelling the last couple of days.
So steering quality has nothing to do with handling!!! Well thats novel!!
Steeroids or more correctly rack & pinion has the advantage over re-circulating ball steering in that you loose the wandering and vagueness when the steering is centred allowing the car to be placed more accurately as you approach and begin to turn in to a corner. It also helps to reduce oversteer when applying opposite lock on exiting the corner.
Intermediate
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I disagree with you, Graem. I don't think that a new stock steering system has that much play in it, at least not enough to affect handling to a great degree. I am sure that the steeroids is a nicer setup but handling has more to do with suspension, center of gravity, traction, weight, etc. To simplify things, if somebody puts on much better tires, it will make the car able to go through turns a bit quicker. If you change to a steeroids can you go through turns more quickly? I doubt it. Perhaps, it might make steering a bit more pleasant and even more precise but how is it going to increase the speed that the car can go before losing traction? I am not an expert and only a newbie but it seems like common sense to me. Maybe an expert can comment on whether or not steeroids improves handling. The only way I can imagine that it might improve handling is if it reduces bump steer.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Gainesville GA
Originally Posted by Breezer
I disagree with you, Graem. I don't think that a new stock steering system has that much play in it, at least not enough to affect handling to a great degree. I am sure that the steeroids is a nicer setup but handling has more to do with suspension, center of gravity, traction, weight, etc. To simplify things, if somebody puts on much better tires, it will make the car able to go through turns a bit quicker. If you change to a steeroids can you go through turns more quickly? I doubt it. Perhaps, it might make steering a bit more pleasant and even more precise but how is it going to increase the speed that the car can go before losing traction? I am not an expert and only a newbie but it seems like common sense to me. Maybe an expert can comment on whether or not steeroids improves handling. The only way I can imagine that it might improve handling is if it reduces bump steer.
I'll disagree with you on this point. After working on many style of race cars over the years having better control of the steering will affect the time on track! If you've ever driven a car with a conventional box at 160 MPH you spend more time dealing with the wandering than you do working on your lines. Better steering will affect your handling!
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,254
Likes: 1
From: Edinburgh
Originally Posted by Breezer
I disagree with you, Graem. I don't think that a new stock steering system has that much play in it, at least not enough to affect handling to a great degree. I am sure that the steeroids is a nicer setup but handling has more to do with suspension, center of gravity, traction, weight, etc. To simplify things, if somebody puts on much better tires, it will make the car able to go through turns a bit quicker. If you change to a steeroids can you go through turns more quickly? I doubt it. Perhaps, it might make steering a bit more pleasant and even more precise but how is it going to increase the speed that the car can go before losing traction? I am not an expert and only a newbie but it seems like common sense to me. Maybe an expert can comment on whether or not steeroids improves handling. The only way I can imagine that it might improve handling is if it reduces bump steer.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2005
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Originally Posted by Doug S
I'll disagree with you on this point. After working on many style of race cars over the years having better control of the steering will affect the time on track! If you've ever driven a car with a conventional box at 160 MPH you spend more time dealing with the wandering than you do working on your lines. Better steering will affect your handling!
Rich
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
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St. Jude Donor '03,'11
Originally Posted by Doug S
I'll disagree with you on this point. After working on many style of race cars over the years having better control of the steering will affect the time on track! If you've ever driven a car with a conventional box at 160 MPH you spend more time dealing with the wandering than you do working on your lines. Better steering will affect your handling!
R&P may give the driver more confidence but i think the $1200 is better spent on other things first. I've adapted quite well to the stock steering.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Gainesville GA
Originally Posted by turtlevette
I went to racearama at Gilette stadium on Saturday. Know how many race cars i saw that had rack and pinion steering? zip.
R&P may give the driver more confidence but i think the $1200 is better spent on other things first. I've adapted quite well to the stock steering.
R&P may give the driver more confidence but i think the $1200 is better spent on other things first. I've adapted quite well to the stock steering.
What type of race cars were you looking at?
Race Director
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I have to agree with the noob, the rack vs. recirculating ball system does not change the handling if you maintain the stock steering geometry, if a kit improves bump steer characteristics then it will haev an impact. What it does do is change the feel because the stock corvette system is unresponsive, not because of the steering box but because of the steering cylinder and more importantly the valve arrangement on the center link, this introduces the off center sloppyness. A proper recirculating ball system ( a tight box 
) will steer just as good as a quality rack system. The only major drawback of a box system is that it puts all the load into one side of the frame and usually it is heavier. The frame issue is easily solved like Norval has done with strengthening.
Light effort also doesn't mean handling is better even though it may feel more responsive because of it, a lot of times the over assist is a major drawback.
) will steer just as good as a quality rack system. The only major drawback of a box system is that it puts all the load into one side of the frame and usually it is heavier. The frame issue is easily solved like Norval has done with strengthening. Light effort also doesn't mean handling is better even though it may feel more responsive because of it, a lot of times the over assist is a major drawback.
Race Director
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From: In Dreams There Is Truth Ohio
Originally Posted by Breezer
Referee stops the bout at 2:43 of round 5; winner by tko and newbie middleweight champion of the world, Breezer the Squeezer!!
Newb, you were knocked out long time ago...you're punch drunk.