I don't know how many of you read the article in the August Hemmings Muscle Car issue entitled "Just a second" but in brief, a guy that lives here in my home town openly "counterfeited" a one of one '68 Z/28 convertible. He did it with incredible attention to detail including counterfeiting some very hard or impossible to find correct parts AND all the faked documentation (right down to window stickers and Protect-O Plate) to prove that his fake is real. In the article, the owner states that his goal was to prove a point (and to have a really cool car that is totally unavailable) but I think the implications are truly disturbing.

First off, I have nothing at all against people doing what they want to their own cars. My 73 looks less like the car that left the factory every day. Nor do I have anything against people recreating cars that are either extremely rare or that never were for that matter. What disturbs me is the impact on our hobby in the long term, particularly to high end cars.

As an example, I've always been partial to LT1s. I took a very long, hard look at a local 70 vert but decided against it for a number of reasons, not the least of which was trying to put a value reduction on the CE engine. Had the car come with the original block, I probably would have bought it. But engine block restamping has now become all the vogue. Should we still put a premium on the original, numbers matching block? I saw a reasonable 72 LT1 vert on eBay this morning:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...250389738&rd=1

It comes with a NOM, but with a little effort, could be sporting a numbers matching block. At least the 72s can be verified as having the VIN number, but i understand that these can be "replaced" as well.

At a local, specialty sales place, i found a very nice 70 LT1 coupe. Supposed to be all original, but the only real evidence is the tank sticker. Given what I've seen of original tank stickers, the more readable this evidence is, the more likely I'd be tempted to believe that it was faked.

What's my point? Dilution. Restamping my 400 small block and selling it as an original block is a fraud that is easily found out and provable. If, however, I go through the trouble of finding a date correct block and then restamp it, who would be able to prove otherwise? Very few would put that kind of effort into a 73 base engine car, but how about a 68 tripower vert? L89 maybe? I know that the economy is a little soft right now, but I wonder if the lack of movement of high end cars isn't starting to be a function of the distrust people have that these cars are "real." If you buy it to drive it, it probably matters very little. if you consider the investment angle, the implications are much worse. The worst part is that I'm not sure that much can be done about it.

 

good on him
maybe it will strike fear into the rich people and their fat checkbooks, hah, yeah right. As your average barely middle class american, hopes of owning anything even remotely considered classic have been going right out the window for many years now.

a rolling, rotting, empty mustang chassis is worth more then a decent rubber bumper C3.. and for no obvious reason, since they made a gazillion of those mustangs :P


I'd be more then happy to see alot of these cars DE-valued, maybe they will end up back in the hands of the people they should be in.. car enthusiasts.. no sorrow for anyone who lost out trying to make money on the cars.. sorry ;0

 

i understand your point thoughly. One question would be what is the expense and how much footwork is it putting all those things together on a look a like. Is the profit margin that great?

 

This is a painful subject for me! About 3 years ago I found a '69 convertible on ebay. It didn't meet reserve, but I was the top bidder & ended up buying it privately. I really paid TOP dollar for it (26k).

My experience with my '73 BB in the early 90's didn't leave me prepared for this one. I've recently found out that the front end had been hit (even found a fedex sticker on the radiator support!), and there's lots of missing or bent parts around the headlights (the one area I didn't look at closely)

It was sold as a matching #'s car, and I checked the engine pad. It turns out the engine had been re-stamped. I suspect the seller knew...

Well, the car is my "get my hands dirty" toy, so its not the end of the world. I'd have been happier paying about 10k less...

I haven't mentioned this to my wife - and probably won't!

 

Yeah just like all these 30 and 40 year old cars with miles well under 100k.

I wonder if 40 years from now you'll see 70% of the C5s with 50k original miles.

But the sucker buyers just eat it up.

 

I feel for anyone who had been sold a car under fraudlent circumstances. A friend had recently bought a Camaro with a boat anchor engine that was supposed to be all forged and ready to rock. When it comes to cars, I wouldn't believe the Pope and would assume it is less than advertised. My 69 has a 69 engine, but not correct for the car. It didn't matter, because I bought it right. When I rebuilt the engine my machine shop offered to change the numbers and make it correct. Through the garapevine I was told he could make an undetectable and perfect looking set of numbers. I declined and decided to keep the incorrect numbers. If the car was bought for enjoyment and something to work on, it doesn't make any difference what parts are in it. If it was for an investment and as a rare collector car, then you better have an expert authenticate the claim and appraise its value.

 

DO THE RIGHT THING AMERICA

 

I read that article . I just can't figure out why . Some peolple seem to have more money than they know what to do with . I don't understand the justification for doing what he did .

 

If the motor is old and dirty, and the car unrestored, with a nice weathered engine pad, It's probably more likely, with numbers that match up, that this is an original, then a 'Frame off resto" with shinny new engine pad, on a rebuilt motor where the numbers match. Get a legally binding notarized sworn statement that the seller swears the engine is the original one, with the original numbers, not restamped. That should coo the jets of the counterfeiters. Most buyers aren't educated car buyers though, and believe the sellers.

 

I'm tired of seeing cars starting out as 6 cyl Model Mustangs, Barracudas and satelites selling for over $100K as "Tribute" cars or Million dollar Chevelles

 

yes i read it[its the only mag i get now] but i thought that he spent a lot of money to prove a point.

 

This is sick, I was googling to see if there is a way to detect a restamp and this is the first sight that pops up. First he explains restamos are illegal and then offers a restamp service. These sites should be illegal.
http://www.bigblockbruce.com/enginer...gservices.html
someone should come up with a consumer product that you can tell if number were filed ,restamped, decked, etc..
the technology is out there.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1976ausn.rept.....Y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_testing.

 

I think he spent both a lot of time and a lot of money to prove his point. Again, I have no issue with him doing it and talking about it. It would, however, be nieve to think that he's the only one out there doing it. the post above on block restamping is an excellent example.

 

aged build sheets,engine restamps,all numbers!! its all BS as long as fools are willing to spend tons more on these types of cars for the prestige of owening a numbers bla bla bla whatever!! dirt bags will be fakeing all the crap that goes with them PERIOD!!!
As i have stated over and over that is the sole reason i would not purchase a numbers matching or a real LT1 L88 LS6 or Z/28 not to mention with todays tech you can build a better faster nicer car than any of these ever came from the factory as!!!

 

Besides saying "There's a sucker born every minute, PT Barnum also said, Give the people what they want". Anyone who ever bought into the "matching numbers game" is part of the problem. If you are of a certain age to remember when these cars were new, most got their miles 1/4 at a time and rode hard until the first (or 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc) owner blew the motor, hit a tree or both. Even Chevrolet saw their prototypes/styling cars as yesterdays used cars and cut them up or sold them as demos.

Sometime around the Indy Pace Car (the FIRST one), people started revering muscle cars in general as something to make money on and it's been spiraling out of control ever since. Do you all honestly believe you have 40 year old cars with the original drivetrain and its NEVER been in an accident? Did you buy it from the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus? 80% of those cars aren't. So what's the point? Beat it like a rental the way God and Zora intended because fortunatly (or not for you investor types) there isn't a damn thing on these cars that can't be replaced (as the forgers prove time and again). Flame suit on

 

I am not saying this guy is planning on frauding anyone but its a perfect example of what could be!!!
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=2077397

 

Maybe mine was the tooth fairy, but Yes, I am sure of my car's history. It was a one owner, titled by a middle aged woman who bought it new. It was not on the road since 1983, stored in a shop. The worst thing that happened to it was to sit for 20 years not being driven. It is a small block base 4spd, but a damn clean one. They are out there, but more rare everyday. Your point is well taken, however. Many- if not most- of these cars were driven like they were stolen by kids who didn't know how to drive them. Many met up with trees, poles, and gaurdrails, some destroyed forever. That is why the values keep climbing. A lot happened in 40 years, and now the counterfeits are killing the love of these cars. I have a great respect for Red 69 for not adding to the problem Anything else is fraud. If someone wants to build an L-88 tribute... fine, whatever. Just don't sell it as an original in 5 years.

 

Dave, I am close to a few people at Hemmings,and get the mag fresh off the press. When I saw the article, I called them up and told them that I thought that there would be Some probably not so nice feed back on this one!!!!

Obviously the owner isnt trying to deceive anyone and he was only trying to make a point, but there are a lot of people who would find that point a bit not amusing.

It's a great car and has already won The goodguys award for the best "correct' restoration.

The confusing part to me is that it is a correct resto on a NON- correct car. SO HOW CORRECT IS IT????? How can an incorrect car restored with correct parts win an award like that????( unless I am mistaken about the award )

As nice as the car is, it is a perfect counterfitting blueprint.

Bottom line, his money, his car, his way, and he isnt trying to sell the car as something it isnt. He is bassicaly saying : I faked this car and YOU CANT TELL!!!!

It is an interesting concept.

On another note, that car cost an astronomical amount of $$$$ to build as A FAKE . Just because it is fake doesnt mean it costs less to build. Another thing to consider.


We have to wait for the feedback section of the next issue. I am sure it will have some colorful comments

 

It's interesting that "tribute" cars fetch a nice penny anyway, so why not go ahead and fess up? The guy that built the fake Z28 will make a bunch of money on it because of the quality of the workmanship.

The only bad guys are those that flat out lie to get more money than they should. Buyers shouldn't plan on investing top dollar in something unless they know what they're looking for.

 

I think that's really the issue that I have. I'd have no problem paying the guy for really fine work on a tribute and enjoy driving it. I do have a problem with getting ripped off. Knowing what to look for is only half the battle. You'll only catch some of the fakes.