View Poll Results: will gm survive?
yes
192
80.67%
no
46
19.33%
Voters: 238. You may not vote on this poll
Gm
11-18-2008, 07:39 PM
#21
Drifting
Labor Cost...The UAW wages are similar to the Honda plant wages in the south in a right to work state The big 3 have to support retirees and health care. That's the difference.
Quality...GM not making it. Ford Quality has improved significantly. Initial quality right up there with the Japanese cars.
Bankruptcy? GM is the one currently running out of money. Ford is there at the begging/handout table to support the industry...and of course the UAW is there to protect it's membership/jobs.
Management? Guess some of you guys can do better. Go ahead and submit your resumes.
Will GM "survive" is not the question to answer. Question is..."can they compete in the long run?" The whole company will have to be restructured in order to do that. They will have to change the way they think about cars of the future. It'll take years and much pain along with a huge industry ripple effect. If they go chapter 11, they will be forced to make change to survive. If they get a government bailout, what incentive is there to change when papa (read this as you and me) is there to bail them out.
Quality...GM not making it. Ford Quality has improved significantly. Initial quality right up there with the Japanese cars.
Bankruptcy? GM is the one currently running out of money. Ford is there at the begging/handout table to support the industry...and of course the UAW is there to protect it's membership/jobs.
Management? Guess some of you guys can do better. Go ahead and submit your resumes.
Will GM "survive" is not the question to answer. Question is..."can they compete in the long run?" The whole company will have to be restructured in order to do that. They will have to change the way they think about cars of the future. It'll take years and much pain along with a huge industry ripple effect. If they go chapter 11, they will be forced to make change to survive. If they get a government bailout, what incentive is there to change when papa (read this as you and me) is there to bail them out.
Last edited by SmokinBBC; 11-18-2008 at 09:33 PM.
11-18-2008, 07:44 PM
#22
When will people take responsibility and bail themselves out instead of relying on others. Not anytime soon since the majority recently voted to have the minority take care of them…through Barack Obama.
11-18-2008, 08:02 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
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I can't see the government letting GM die. I recently bought $1500 worth of stock at a hair under $3.00 . May even drop to $2.50 . Once the government throws it weight behind it , it'll pop back to "maybe" $3.50 . If it doesn't ..... well .... no toys for Christmas (for me that is)
11-18-2008, 08:43 PM
#24
Drifting
11-18-2008, 09:10 PM
#25
Melting Slicks
They will make it!
1) Things in this world are cyclical. Businesses especially. There are many companies that were once riding high and eventually fall. It's impossible to stay on top forever. Some companies fall to the wayside, others reinvent themselves. There will be a day when Toyota won't be known for quality vehicles ...and people will having a similar discussion about wheather to save Toyota.
2) I don't know what you guys are talking about. GM makes great vehicles! All the GM vehicles I've owned (many) have all gone well over 200k miles with very few problems. They look great and I personally much prefer how they drive compared to the imports. Plus, they don't make them as cheap and flimsy as Toyotas and Hondas. I know, I've owned a few Toyotas and Hondas. I mean, they are ok, but if you compare them with domestic vehicles, the interiors of the imports just plain suck! ..unless you like rough-riding and noisy vehicles with cheap blow-molded plastic dashes and carpeting as thin as felt, and running gear that practically self-destructs in a mild collision. I have a nice Toyota truck and you talk about Tranny issues ...and rust.
Mark G
1) Things in this world are cyclical. Businesses especially. There are many companies that were once riding high and eventually fall. It's impossible to stay on top forever. Some companies fall to the wayside, others reinvent themselves. There will be a day when Toyota won't be known for quality vehicles ...and people will having a similar discussion about wheather to save Toyota.
2) I don't know what you guys are talking about. GM makes great vehicles! All the GM vehicles I've owned (many) have all gone well over 200k miles with very few problems. They look great and I personally much prefer how they drive compared to the imports. Plus, they don't make them as cheap and flimsy as Toyotas and Hondas. I know, I've owned a few Toyotas and Hondas. I mean, they are ok, but if you compare them with domestic vehicles, the interiors of the imports just plain suck! ..unless you like rough-riding and noisy vehicles with cheap blow-molded plastic dashes and carpeting as thin as felt, and running gear that practically self-destructs in a mild collision. I have a nice Toyota truck and you talk about Tranny issues ...and rust.
Mark G
11-18-2008, 10:29 PM
#26
Racer
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I am pulling for the domestics and hope they get their s___ togather but my problems with domestics is not so much the major mechanicals but with the electronic and support systems. After about 60,000 miles you can expect all the little crap going bye bye and it becomes a pain and expensive to keep it togather. Pretty soon you find yourself living with out a power window, power door locks. power antenna and multiple little problems that you learn to live without because it is expensive to repair and they just keep coming and the service manager says oh they are all like that.
The best Corvette I ever owned was a 1996 which I put over 160.000 miles of pleasant daily driving. My next new Vette was a 1990 and then a 1992, good with improved ride but the Instruments and just about support systems were not as precise. It was as though they just kept cutting costs.
People have long memories about car problems and the mostly awful service from most domestic dealers. They have improved greatly for the most part but they were very late for the party.
The best Corvette I ever owned was a 1996 which I put over 160.000 miles of pleasant daily driving. My next new Vette was a 1990 and then a 1992, good with improved ride but the Instruments and just about support systems were not as precise. It was as though they just kept cutting costs.
People have long memories about car problems and the mostly awful service from most domestic dealers. They have improved greatly for the most part but they were very late for the party.
11-18-2008, 10:49 PM
#27
Advanced
They continue to produce poor quality vehicles. We own six vehicles. Three are imports and three are domestic. Ford makes the best quality domestic car for the money, GM is second and Chrysler the worst.
Hemi or no Hemi Mercedes was smart to dump Chrysler.
Over the past twenty three years, I have owned nine German cars. Porsche is correct "There is no Comparison".
I rent cars for business travel. It is interesting driving the various brands.
My conclusion is Ford makes the best domestic cars. GM's best car is the Chevy Impala. It is better car than the Cadillac. Pontiac has been failing to produce a BMW clone now for at least 35 years.
I sadly feel that Chapter 11 is the path for GM. They need to get rid of the bloated costs. If they cannot reorganize, then Chapter 7 is the answer. Do you really think the children of post world war II baby boomers dream of owning a GM product?
Do you think the present management of the Corvette Plant are gutsy enough to buy their division from Chevrolet and be a stand alone manufacturer of specialty sport cars like Porsche. I think they are not.
Hemi or no Hemi Mercedes was smart to dump Chrysler.
Over the past twenty three years, I have owned nine German cars. Porsche is correct "There is no Comparison".
I rent cars for business travel. It is interesting driving the various brands.
My conclusion is Ford makes the best domestic cars. GM's best car is the Chevy Impala. It is better car than the Cadillac. Pontiac has been failing to produce a BMW clone now for at least 35 years.
I sadly feel that Chapter 11 is the path for GM. They need to get rid of the bloated costs. If they cannot reorganize, then Chapter 7 is the answer. Do you really think the children of post world war II baby boomers dream of owning a GM product?
Do you think the present management of the Corvette Plant are gutsy enough to buy their division from Chevrolet and be a stand alone manufacturer of specialty sport cars like Porsche. I think they are not.
Last edited by 1973yj8owner; 11-18-2008 at 11:02 PM.
11-18-2008, 10:51 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
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On CNN tonight they said that the Big three were paying $75/hr while Toyota was paying $48 (including benefits). Gm and Ford should move to the South away from the unions.
On a side note.. Why doesn't Ford or GM make motorcycles? Honda does for about $1100 per 100 CC.
I would love to have an American made motorcycle that costs about the same as an import.
On a side note.. Why doesn't Ford or GM make motorcycles? Honda does for about $1100 per 100 CC.
I would love to have an American made motorcycle that costs about the same as an import.
11-18-2008, 11:17 PM
#29
Drifting
The $74 vs $41 is accurate when you compare total wages for american vs our asian friends that build cars in the USA. The pension and healthcare beneifts are enormous and gives the american car manufacturers a sever disadvantage. when you factor in that there is @ $3k difference in profit margin per car. Take a common sense approach here folks. GM/Ford and Chrysler can make great small cars. The media says how they dont want to. The problem is with the $3k deficit per car a small car isnt profitable.
The american automobile industry needs to revamp since its model is as old as the industry. We can blame mgmt unions etc. Its all of them. If the govt bails them out its just throwing good money to bad. A number of changes should be done before bailing out the auto industry:
1) Current and future pension benefits have to be cut by 50%. Yeah it sucks!!! If they go bankrupt folks the pension gets offloaded to the PBGC. if that happens pensions will be cut worse. Talk to a United airlines pilot...its about 25 cents on the dollar. Last I recall 50 is greater than 25!!!
2) All contracts have to be revamped to place the anerican autos on par with Honda/Toyota/Nissan.
3) Healthcare has to be revamped. GM is one of the largest heathcare providers in the country. Sorry about this one but look at other companies. I pay some serious $$$ for my heathcare.
4) Shake up managemant. A lot of them got screwed lately anyway with compensation tied to the companies performance. Its not that great being granted stock options that are worthless.
If the govt follows something like this the american auto industry can start kicking some *** again!!! Loaning 25 bill under these circumstance I would approve. Anything else let them go bankrupt, restructure and then the whole economy is screwed along with the union workers. Worse than my idea.
Yup, its a tough cut but talk to those who have no job, 401k/retirement wiped out and no heathcare. Tough times require tough changes.
The american automobile industry needs to revamp since its model is as old as the industry. We can blame mgmt unions etc. Its all of them. If the govt bails them out its just throwing good money to bad. A number of changes should be done before bailing out the auto industry:
1) Current and future pension benefits have to be cut by 50%. Yeah it sucks!!! If they go bankrupt folks the pension gets offloaded to the PBGC. if that happens pensions will be cut worse. Talk to a United airlines pilot...its about 25 cents on the dollar. Last I recall 50 is greater than 25!!!
2) All contracts have to be revamped to place the anerican autos on par with Honda/Toyota/Nissan.
3) Healthcare has to be revamped. GM is one of the largest heathcare providers in the country. Sorry about this one but look at other companies. I pay some serious $$$ for my heathcare.
4) Shake up managemant. A lot of them got screwed lately anyway with compensation tied to the companies performance. Its not that great being granted stock options that are worthless.
If the govt follows something like this the american auto industry can start kicking some *** again!!! Loaning 25 bill under these circumstance I would approve. Anything else let them go bankrupt, restructure and then the whole economy is screwed along with the union workers. Worse than my idea.
Yup, its a tough cut but talk to those who have no job, 401k/retirement wiped out and no heathcare. Tough times require tough changes.
Last edited by MRANT212; 11-18-2008 at 11:19 PM.
11-18-2008, 11:33 PM
#30
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St. Jude Donor '10
I think they will make it after filing Chapter 11. I just think the company that comes out of that restructuring will look very different then it does today, much smaller offering, much smaller footprint. If they don't find out what people want and build a reliable car or truck then they will become another Desoto, or Nash, or DeLorean.
I may wish I had visited Bowling Green last summer if the Corvete plant doesn't survive.
I lost money on Global Crossings in the past, no more stomach for the stock market. I'll just sit on the sidelines, watch the outcome and play with my Corvettes...
David
I may wish I had visited Bowling Green last summer if the Corvete plant doesn't survive.
I lost money on Global Crossings in the past, no more stomach for the stock market. I'll just sit on the sidelines, watch the outcome and play with my Corvettes...
David
11-19-2008, 12:08 AM
#31
Instructor
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Of course they will survive.............with the government's help
When is the government going to bail us hard working Americans out?
GM cars are crap, except the Corvette ! What good is a new car if it stays in the shop always. My girlfriend has a '01 Malibu, what a Jewel that is, I hope I got all the Dex-Cool out it in time to save the motor !
When is the government going to bail us hard working Americans out?
GM cars are crap, except the Corvette ! What good is a new car if it stays in the shop always. My girlfriend has a '01 Malibu, what a Jewel that is, I hope I got all the Dex-Cool out it in time to save the motor !
i couldn't disagree with you more and i own a 2003 malibu, you are correct about the dex-cool as this crap turns to paste pretty quickly and gums evrything up! i flushed my system the second day i owned the car, other than brakes, oil changes the car has been very reliable for us. the best car (besides corvette) chevrolet produced were the cosrsica/beretta 's i owned 2 a 1990 (built in wilmington,de) and a 1992 (built in linden, nj) both of those ran flawlessly and the '92 corsica had just under 300K on the odometer. so, i have had great luck with chevrolets, i am not saying they are perfect, but they are definitely reliable (inmho)
...................................chris
11-19-2008, 12:28 AM
#32
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of course i know that but at 3.00 +/- share i figured i'd roll the dice, i purchased 1500 like the other fellow and will "sit" on it if they go belly up, so be it. but if they rebound, it may be a very wise investment! as i stated i have always bought american cars since i started driving in 1975! (giving my age away??) there has been alot of impassioned response here and that is a good thing! the line about the CEO's my point was those jobs SHOULD be linked to performance as far as bonuses are concerned, also, in my opinion they ARE overpaid! but then, the guy putting on hub caps may be considered "overpaid" as well as he isn't really "skilled" labor. one thing i never cared for in the GM lineup were all the rebadged cars cavailer/sunfire, malibu,/cutlass-alero,/grand-am and so on, there will have to be major changes made and i believe they will adapt.
........................................ .................chris
........................................ .................chris
11-19-2008, 09:24 AM
#34
Race Director
Wanna see GM stock go down the toilet,just let me buy some of it?Never Fails.
I've been considering it,but dont know if I want to be responsible for the failure.
Hmmm I know how we can all make money...you guys send me a few bucks to stay the hell out of the stock market.
Never Fails.I've been considering it,but dont know if I want to be responsible for the failure.Hmmm I know how we can all make money...you guys send me a few bucks to stay the hell out of the stock market.
11-19-2008, 10:12 AM
#36
Drifting
There are some very good insights and ideas here. I have always maintained that the Pontiac line has been a real drag on GM the last 15 years or so. Poor quality combined with old tired looks - Sunfire, Grand Am, Gran Prix ,Aztec- rental car stalemates. I couldn't imagine buying one of these new from a dealer. Pontiac was one of the first to go retro with the GTO - they couldn't have laid a bigger egg with the looks of that car - how does that get approval through the chain at GM?? - Nothing wrong with that motor though. I think that even Solstice is not selling well and that they lose $10,000 on every Solstice that they build- meaning it was not designed to be a "profit" car.
I've got no qualms with Buick and Cadillac - solid cars. Malibu is terrific but I only like the SS models of Impala and Cobalt.
I'm not a Ford person but I have to admit that their lineup of cars right now is right on. I like them all.
Chrysler consistently scores low on reliability - since the 1970's. After all this time they still can't get it together. If anyone of the Big 3 deserves to die , its Chrysler.
I've got no qualms with Buick and Cadillac - solid cars. Malibu is terrific but I only like the SS models of Impala and Cobalt.
I'm not a Ford person but I have to admit that their lineup of cars right now is right on. I like them all.
Chrysler consistently scores low on reliability - since the 1970's. After all this time they still can't get it together. If anyone of the Big 3 deserves to die , its Chrysler.
11-19-2008, 12:35 PM
#37
Le Mans Master
My DD Jeep had 205K miles and has never had a significant problem, so don't tell me domestics can't make a reliable car. I believe GM will survive, but will need to make some changes to make more gas friendly vehicles. Someone metioned Ford makes the best domestic cars and most desireable. Aside from the Mustang, which I do like, you want to tell me that the Edge, Focus, Fusion etc. are good looking vehicles? I think they all are just a small step above and Aztek, or even a god awful ugly Prius.
11-19-2008, 12:42 PM
#38
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I voted yes. GM will survive. they need to go thru Chap 11 but the'll survive. One thought thou
If GM goes under, our cars will be worth a fortune as they will not longer be made. Bad side is, no one will be working and have money to buy them.
If GM goes under, our cars will be worth a fortune as they will not longer be made. Bad side is, no one will be working and have money to buy them.
11-19-2008, 12:50 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
yes, i am buying stock in GM, my vote was yes i believe they will survive!! although i really think instead of a "bailout loan" from uncle sam, they really need to do a chapter 11 bankruptcy restructuring thier assests and get rid of the most incompetent ceo management team
11-19-2008, 06:04 PM
#40
Le Mans Master
The problem goes a lot deeper than the "Big 3". I work for a Supplier to the Big 3 with about a 1/3 of our business with each. If one goes down, our Company will be history along with our suppliers. Agreed, the Big 3 needs their azz kicked and it sounds like the Congressional Committee is really letting them have it. If you are interested, listen to it on Cspan ….very entertaining to see the CEO’s squirm.
Like others have said, I’ll never buy foreign since my income is based on the Big 3.
Like others have said, I’ll never buy foreign since my income is based on the Big 3.