Missing ZL-1?
09-21-2009, 07:46 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
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The white car was not a production built ZL-1, it was a conversion. I would not put it in the classification of a factory built ZL-1, more likely a dealer swap.
09-21-2009, 07:47 PM
#44
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Ok the white car is REAL as the orginal tank sticker and build order has been verified. The rumor of the car being fake came from the car having a painted block orginally. THis is how the orginal ZL-1 cars were gotton out of the assembly plant. But that car is VERIFIED and DOCUMENTED. The blus car in FLA is ABSOLUTLY a clone it was an orginal L-88 but not a ZL-1 as onced was hoped. It now has a ZL-1 motor in it but it is an over the counter motor and NOT a corvette ZL-1 motor.
I respect the Horse power issues, however i saw with my own eyes, the Gold car in Ohio with 16,000 miles on the dyno and it hit 640HP If i remember correct it was 642.2hp to be exact. I also saw the dyno results of a 69 L-88 car with 5400 miles and the dyno sheet was 538.3. I can tell you this, the ZL-1 motors were a very different animal. The cam timing has something to do with a big horse power gain in the engine as well as the head configuration. Like i said many people think the ZL-1 and L-88 are the same engine with an aluminum block, They are not they are TOTALLY different beasts.
I respect the Horse power issues, however i saw with my own eyes, the Gold car in Ohio with 16,000 miles on the dyno and it hit 640HP If i remember correct it was 642.2hp to be exact. I also saw the dyno results of a 69 L-88 car with 5400 miles and the dyno sheet was 538.3. I can tell you this, the ZL-1 motors were a very different animal. The cam timing has something to do with a big horse power gain in the engine as well as the head configuration. Like i said many people think the ZL-1 and L-88 are the same engine with an aluminum block, They are not they are TOTALLY different beasts.
09-21-2009, 08:01 PM
#46
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Ok the white car is REAL as the orginal tank sticker and build order has been verified. The rumor of the car being fake came from the car having a painted block orginally. THis is how the orginal ZL-1 cars were gotton out of the assembly plant. But that car is VERIFIED and DOCUMENTED. The blus car in FLA is ABSOLUTLY a clone it was an orginal L-88 but not a ZL-1 as onced was hoped. It now has a ZL-1 motor in it but it is an over the counter motor and NOT a corvette ZL-1 motor.
I respect the Horse power issues, however i saw with my own eyes, the Gold car in Ohio with 16,000 miles on the dyno and it hit 640HP If i remember correct it was 642.2hp to be exact. I also saw the dyno results of a 69 L-88 car with 5400 miles and the dyno sheet was 538.3. I can tell you this, the ZL-1 motors were a very different animal. The cam timing has something to do with a big horse power gain in the engine as well as the head configuration. Like i said many people think the ZL-1 and L-88 are the same engine with an aluminum block, They are not they are TOTALLY different beasts.
I respect the Horse power issues, however i saw with my own eyes, the Gold car in Ohio with 16,000 miles on the dyno and it hit 640HP If i remember correct it was 642.2hp to be exact. I also saw the dyno results of a 69 L-88 car with 5400 miles and the dyno sheet was 538.3. I can tell you this, the ZL-1 motors were a very different animal. The cam timing has something to do with a big horse power gain in the engine as well as the head configuration. Like i said many people think the ZL-1 and L-88 are the same engine with an aluminum block, They are not they are TOTALLY different beasts.
I'm not saying it isn't true; I'm saying you should establish your credentials for making these statements.
And who verified the documentation on the white car?
Identifying yourself would help.
As you can imagine, lots of anonymous people post some very interesting things on this forum.
You guys do know about the only 1970 LS-7 in existance, right?
09-21-2009, 08:03 PM
#47
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Ok let me touch on the orange car quickly. This car was NOT orange from the factory the car was red i think, and changed very quickly as a favor for yenko. So yes the orginal owner got the car orange like he told you. And yes it did not have the black strips. I am not sure of the origin of the ZL-1 stripes. If they came from the factory like that there would be a code somwhere for them and i cannot find any info on them at all. I have tried but cannot and i am still loking into them. There is also 2 sets of stripes if i had to lean toward 1 set i would say the yellow car has the "right" set of stripes but i cannot verify that yet. 2 of the cars have stripes and 2 have not.
I need to clarify the white car again. This car is a DOCUMENTED REAL ZL-1 car. The tank sticker of the car has been verified and the orginal owner has sworn to the car being real. It was not a conversion as was rumored. That rumor came from a painted block in the car. Research has proven that the assembly plant INDEED painted the aluminum blocks. This was their way of getting the ZL-1's out the door. The dealer did not switch the car to a ZL-1 motor. They replaced the painted block with a non painted block, but BOTH blocks were aluminum and the cars tank sticker has the L-88 option as well as the ZL-1 option. Hence a REAL PRODUCTION ZL-1.
I need to clarify the white car again. This car is a DOCUMENTED REAL ZL-1 car. The tank sticker of the car has been verified and the orginal owner has sworn to the car being real. It was not a conversion as was rumored. That rumor came from a painted block in the car. Research has proven that the assembly plant INDEED painted the aluminum blocks. This was their way of getting the ZL-1's out the door. The dealer did not switch the car to a ZL-1 motor. They replaced the painted block with a non painted block, but BOTH blocks were aluminum and the cars tank sticker has the L-88 option as well as the ZL-1 option. Hence a REAL PRODUCTION ZL-1.
09-21-2009, 08:14 PM
#48
Melting Slicks
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You are incorrect on the white ZL-1 coupe, I've viewed the factory documentation, it started life as a L-88 optioned car, nowhere on the original Corvette Order Copy does it show the 8 cylinder conditioning ECL code for the ZL-1 option. This car may have come from Zora's engineering dept or it could have been changed out by the dealer. Jack Cheskaty was quite surprised to pick up his new Corvette with 100 miles showing on the odometer. He did indeed put a magnet on the front of the cylinder case to be sure it wasn't magnetic, as he was puzzled about it also. Yes there is an affidavit from him that the car was delivered new to him with this engine, however that doesn't mean much with NO factory paperwork, ie; Corvette Order Copy, Protect-0-Plate w/pamphlet or Window invoice, Car Shipper Copy or sheet 7 of the COC showing the proper and necessary ECL codes to back up the ZL-1 factory ordered option on this car.
Last edited by early shark; 09-21-2009 at 08:17 PM.
09-21-2009, 08:16 PM
#49
Amazing to me that after all these years the tank sticker shows up for the white car. All there was prior was the letter from the original owner. The L/88 would pull 535 to 565 hp at 6,500 rpms, in stock trim with dyno headers. The ZL-1 would pull a few more on the dyno, but due to the distortion of the cylinder walls when the engine got hot, it would actually pull about 10-15 hp less than the L/88 when both were prepped identically.
I don't know much about the cars, but I bought my first L/88 engine in early 1970 and have owned one or two of the cars.
I don't know much about the cars, but I bought my first L/88 engine in early 1970 and have owned one or two of the cars.
09-21-2009, 08:25 PM
#50
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just quickly the tank sticker has been in posession of the owner for some time for the white car, just not publicly known. And yes it has the ZL-1 option it may be debated here and everywhere else, but the car is a TRUE DOCUMENTED FACTORY PRODUCE ZL-1.
09-21-2009, 10:07 PM
#51
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Actually the internals of the L-88 and the ZL-1 motors are quite different. You can use the L-88 internals on a ZL-1 motor, but you CANNOT use the ZL-1 internals on an L-88 engine. The dome of the piston is higher on the ZL-1 creating 12.5 to 1 compression. The cam is actually very different with a HUGE duration on the ZL-1 motors. Also on the corvette ZL-1 blocks there is extra bolt holes under the windage tray as well as very different porting of the heads. Again there is also the physical differences in the motors too. The 109 pounds saved from the aluminum motor was really just icing on the cake as the entire intent of the motor was to build more power and more torque. The extra hp is exactly what GM designed this motor for, on the outside basically their stock L-88 (Aluminium of course,) but the redesigned internals giving a huge power curve and monster torque. Please understand the ZL-1 motor was ONLY built for chevy racing and GM did EVERYTHING in their power to not let the ZL-1 hit the streets, hence the $11,000+ price tag in 1969. Take nothing away from the L-88 motor is is an extremely powerful and well designed motor. GM just wanted an edge over dodge and the factory race wars of the 60's and 70's. Yes the L-88 was rated at 430 hp and the ZL-1 also at 430hp. Think about it, not knowing what we know now about these cars and motors, why would ANYONE spend 11 grand on a car when you can spend less then half on and L-88 and really get the same ADVERTISIED performance. That was the mind set of GM back then. To be honest i would have bought the L-88 too at that time as i just to save 109 pounds is not worth the extra $6000.
i also read early on in this thread about the red ZL-1 car being run then showing up later with the 454r motor a year later. This is true and false at the same time. The chassis of the cars were the same however the bodies were not. that car was actually destroyed by GM as a "pilot car" program.
i also read early on in this thread about the red ZL-1 car being run then showing up later with the 454r motor a year later. This is true and false at the same time. The chassis of the cars were the same however the bodies were not. that car was actually destroyed by GM as a "pilot car" program.
09-21-2009, 10:09 PM
#52
Very strange to me that Otis Chandler never had a tank sticker, asked GM for documentation, non found, and NOW it is documented with a tank sticker?? Two and two is five on this deal
09-21-2009, 11:18 PM
#53
09-21-2009, 11:57 PM
#55
Instructor
It's like the old story goes, the fellow tells his buddies, 'I'm only ankle deep in bull****...problem is I jumped in head first.'
bigdaddyvet, until we know who you are (really) and what facts you stand on, you are full of poop and there isn't anyone here who should take you seriously.
Regards,
Mark Donnally
bigdaddyvet, until we know who you are (really) and what facts you stand on, you are full of poop and there isn't anyone here who should take you seriously.
Regards,
Mark Donnally
09-22-2009, 12:54 AM
#57
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I received a PM from this bigdaddyvet, earlier today, disputing what I said about the former Cheskaty white ZL-1 coupe. He signed the email, Ken.
He also inquired if I was Roy Bratz (a slight misspelling of his last name), my complete profile is listed.
He also inquired if I was Roy Bratz (a slight misspelling of his last name), my complete profile is listed.
Last edited by early shark; 09-22-2009 at 12:58 AM.
09-22-2009, 07:42 AM
#59
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One of the Vette magazines (may have been Vette magazine) ran an article on the orange ZL-1 car.
I am not talking about the article that was in Corvette Enthusaist magazine.
Anyway, this article had a picture of the original tank sticker for the car. I have seen the tank sticker, and I seem to recall that it listed the color as Monaco Orange.
Can anyone locate that article and confirm that the color listed is Monaco Orange.
I do not believe that this car was repainted. The original owner told me he ordered the car with that color specifically to support the Gulf Oil racing program. Gulf Oil exec had to call Chevrolet and convince them to build the car with an automatic, so Gulf Oil was involved before the car was built.
I am not talking about the article that was in Corvette Enthusaist magazine.
Anyway, this article had a picture of the original tank sticker for the car. I have seen the tank sticker, and I seem to recall that it listed the color as Monaco Orange.
Can anyone locate that article and confirm that the color listed is Monaco Orange.
I do not believe that this car was repainted. The original owner told me he ordered the car with that color specifically to support the Gulf Oil racing program. Gulf Oil exec had to call Chevrolet and convince them to build the car with an automatic, so Gulf Oil was involved before the car was built.
09-22-2009, 09:56 AM
#60
Melting Slicks
Good to see you posting here!
Was that the first or second tank sticker this car showed up with?
I did a pre-purchase inspection for a gentleman who was interested in buying this car a few years ago. The trim tag was the real deal and was definitely coded for Monaco orange... End of story.
What I have learned from my research:
Chevrolet records indicate two ZL-1 optioned Corvettes were produced for sale during the 1969 model year.
There is no supporting evidence that these Chevrolet records are 100% accurate or complete.
The ownership history and documentation on the Daytona yellow car is sufficient to convince me that it was originally built as a ZL-1 Corvette at the St. Louis assembly plant.
There is no supporting evidence that the Daytona yellow car is one of the two that Chevrolet claims that they built for sale. It might be, but there is no documentation to prove that it is.
The remaining cars (Monaco orange, Can Am white, and Lemans blue) have issues to varying degrees. That doesn't mean that they were not originally ZL-1 cars, but it does create doubt as to what they originally were built as.
I am unaware of a Riverside gold car. Not to say that there wasn't one, but in 30 years of fanatically tracking Corvettes of this era, I think that I would have heard something about it.
If I had Donnally's money
and dropping several million dollars on a 1969 Corvette was an option, the only car that I would make an offer on (at this point in time) is the Daytona yellow car that Roger owns.Regards,
Stan Falenski