When you guys restore your engines, do you "restore" it back with original style parts, or do you make modifications to it such as a better cam and springs, opening oil galleys, etc. etc.?

Do you want your restorations absolutely original condition on the inside, or do you make the modifications for more power?

How far out of your way do you go to keep it as original as possible?

Hopefully this doesn't become a debate over the word "restore".

 

You might want to choose another word. "Restore" usually implies stock.

You can "rebuild" any way you want.

Which do you want to do? Restore or rebuild?

 

From what I've been reading it seems what can be seen on the outside is what's most important when we're talking restoration. Matching numbers, casting numbers, date codes, correct brackets, etc. It seems what's inside the motor can be changed to whatever you wish. It can't be seen, difficult to prove it's as built originally or not.

 

Mine was restored to original condition both mechanically and cosmetically.

 

If you're referring to NCRS judging, an L48 car with clacky solid lifters and a lumpy idle will fail a PV every time.

 

Good point.
What I was referring to are posts where people talk of hopping up a rather anemic 'numbers matching' engine assuming it will have little affect on market value. Mainly the mid to later 70's engines. Implication is if the 'numbers match' what's inside doesn't matter much to the market. Could be true...

 

We can argue about what it means to "restore" something, but if you look the word up in the dictionary, it will say something to the effect of returning something to it's original condition. Pretty cut and dried.

Scott

 

I've heard on the NCRS board to never change anything on an original engine that involves removing metal. I guess if you need to bore .030 over then the engine will never be "as original" again. How could it ever be when the displacement has increased? One could never claim the engine has been restored, they would have to come clean and admit that it has been rebuilt (altered) in some fashion.

To answer your question, I had my rebuilder do what I and my advisor wanted to do. I enjoy the increased power and the slightly rough, lopey idle thru my Allen's oversized side exhaust. It is LOUD! I guess I won't be wasting my money on any NCRS PV exams.

 

i rebuilt my OEM number original engine to look just like that on the outside. on the inside, it is bored out 383 stroker kit, cam, etc. looking at it sitting in the car other than the headers, it looks "stock". once it comes to life, however there is no way one would call it a restored engine, rebuilt yes, restored (AS IN ORIGINAL) no chance. it runs through hooker headers (ceramic coated) into 2 1/2 inch collectors and a baffled exhaust system which is the exact same as the baffled exhaust in a side pipe car except mine exits the rear and looks pretty stock from behind, right down to the turned down tips

 

The NCRS is pretty extreme when it comes to this sort of thing. Personally, I think it fits the commonly held definition of "restoring" to take an engine block with a worn cylinder finish, and "restore" the cylinder's finish to it's original condition, by boring and honing it. I mean, eventually you reach a point where you start to realize that it's getting silly. Are you going to "restore" your brake pads? Are you going to drain the engine oil and "restore" it, and put it back in the engine?



Scott

 

The two of you should try joining up and actually learn something factual about NCRS before pontificating on 'how it works' and 'how it should work'. You're so far off the bullseye you missed the dart board entirely.

 

I hope you expand on that Mike.

I guess what I'm asking is what about is polishing rods, changing cams, compression ratios, etc. What about using "just" stock replacement parts? How are they going to know, and do I have a moral responsibility to rebuild without using ARP bolts on the inside if I were trying for an NCRS or Bloomington Gold, or the like?

I guess I have a hard time not building it a little better.

 

First question is do you want to go NCRS and get into that? Do you just want to keep the engine "original" for the numbers matching value on the car? These can be two totally different approaches. I think many people upgrade the inside of the engines when rebuilding and if they don't go to extremes, the logic is the numbers still match but a buyer can't tell what's inside.

If you want to go the NCRS route get some literature on the requirements as you can see people have different opinions on what the rules are. If it is just for your pleasure but you want to remain as stock as possible, then do what you want to the inside and don't worry or get a crate engine and store the original for later.

 

First- the NCRS couldn't care less what you do with your Corvette- it's YOUR car. If you want to try for an award, then you have to follow the rules. Your choice.

Suffice to say the engines are not disassembled beyond removing the air cleaner and ignition shielding top cover simply to see a few part numbers and dates.

To state that engines can't be bored .030" over is ludicrous. Who makes this cr*p up anyway? Al Gore? As you said, how are they going to know? Answer- they don't, cause it isn't judged.

There is one very specialized test that very few members go after called a Performance Verification (PV) where everything on the car must function exactly as it would have when new. The example I gave above with a radical solid lifter cam installed in a mild hydraulic cam engine would be detected with the engine idling as an obvious 'different' sound. The PV is not part of standard Flight Judging that makes up 95% of judging activity.

 

Mike, all I meant by my statement was that it is common knowledge that NCRS judging is very strict. Reading it now, I can see how you might think I was saying that NCRS would disagree with my interpretation of "restoring" the cylinder walls, but I really wasn't. I don't know a whole lot about NCRS, except that they have the reputation of having very, very high standards. And I will most likely never join NCRS, because I am not willing to restore to that level, too much work!!! If I put that kind of effort into a car, I'd be afraid to drive it! See ya,


Scott

 

Hi Scott,

I'm a fairly new member of the NCRS with a few comments. From what I've observed their standards vary depending on how close an owner may want to come restoring their car to the way it was originally built. Judging is based on a standard of how the cars were typically built back in the day. A standard which makes sense to me, independent of market influences or personal tastes. Three levels of flight judging reflecting how close the owners car comes to matching how they were typically built. As Mike has stated, it's entirely up to the owner whether or not they wish to have their car judged to this standard. If restoration to original condition is the owner's goal, the flight judging provides a service which evaluates the owner's car and provides a report on how close it comes, what areas need attention, etc. It's purely voluntary. If an owner chooses to have their car judged they should be prepared for some criticism. The point of judging.

I doubt I'll ever try for a top flight or even a second flight for my car, more investment than I can justify. I aim to keep my car looking 'correct' for its time period in the eyes of a casual observer.
I joined for access to restoration info offered by the NCRS out of curiousity and to the extent I'm willing to take mine. Eventually attend a few functions (once I find some time). I may never try to bring my car up to top flight but do admire the cars of those who have. I have to say I'm a bit mystified by some of the remarks I read about the NCRS on this forum. There are other organizations which seem to be a bit more pure or influenced by market interests than the NCRS..

 

I believe that was your mentor Dukey that made a comment about not removing metal. I was merely responding to the OP question about restoring or rebuilding an engine. I joined NCRS 7 years ago for access to technical information and know just about everything I care to know about the organization itself. I would rather spend my hard-earned money on the car and enjoy driving it, rather than wasting it travelling to some regional or national meet for judging, flight or PV. Besides, if there a bunch of argumentative know-it-alls like you there, I probably wouldn't enjoy myself very much at all. I certainly wouldn't drink a beer with you.

 

I frequent the NCRS Forum. I've never seen that advice, but that forum is similar to this one in that everyone has an opinion.

NCRS judging standards are well known, in writing, and have been around for years. Nothing extreme in that.

Join. http://www.ncrs.org/

 

I drink Whiskey, Cognac and Bourbon.

 

I would drink a beer with Mike, of the Easy or Ward variety!

I think some folks are reading some animosity that I don't think is there. That's all I've got to say about that.

To answer the OP's question: The only engines I have rebuilt with my own 2 hands were air-cooled VW engines. One I rebuilt trying as hard as I could to reproduce as closely as possible what was in the car when it rolled off the production line. The other was a mild custom (changed 1500 cc displacement to 1600cc, changed from single port intake to dual port intake). Not surprisingly, when I did the "original" style motor, I was thinking of getting the car judged, so that is the route I went. The second one was just for a driver, so I went with slightly better performance when it cost me little or nothing extra (I traded for the intake manifold and the 1600 cc cylinders were actually a little cheaper than the 1500s in those days, the pistons and rings were about the same etc.). The point being, what you want to do with the car is always an important factor in how you build the engine for it.