I pulled the transmission out tonight and tried to split the tail bushing but only pushed it in....so I took off the extension and found THIS....



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What is this about? Somebody try to throw it onto reverse at 50 MPH???

Im going to need a reverse gear, a idler, and the bearing support on the front end....anybody have any cheap sources?

 

Mine looked similar to that when I rebuilt mine. Tail housing was also cracked. I came to the same conclusion as you (Somebody try to throw it onto reverse at 50 MPH???)

 

Where did you get parts? I can only find ONE shop online for Muncie stuff...

 

Several on the auction site.

 

Maybe time for a five speed? John

 

If by your reverse sucking you mean it would grind going into gear, it's a cause not an effect. It's your "reverse sucking" that caused the damage to those gears.As you can see it's a non syncro'd gear change. Even with a properly adjust and working clutch when you step on the clutch it takes a few moments for the gears to stop spinning. Nobody waits for that to happen, they just throw it into reverse. It grinds a bit as it stops the spinning gears and this is what happens. If you have a poorly adjusted clutch, a dry pilot bushing or a warped friction disc, the problem is worse.

To avoid doing that to the new gears always put it into a syncro'd gear before going into reverse. The syncros will stop all the spinning gears and it will slip into reverse without a grind.

If you have had the gridning going into reverse and it's a little difficult to push it into 1st at a standstill you really want to look for causes of a dragging clutch.


BTW, if you hadn't seen them, those gears would have gone another 50,000 miles.
Steve

 

Reverse and 1st were always tough to engage. Ive fund a few causes so far (loose 1/2 lever) and the shifter was all gummed up. But After looking at those gears I cant even think about re using them. My nose support (bearing support) is also cracked like someone hung it partially off the shaft and pried it up and down. Everything INSIDE the gear box looks good though. Im going to put a parts wanted add up today....Im loooking at 300 bucks in retail parts!

 

If you don't want to ruin those new gears you'd best pull the clutch. It sounds very much like you had a clutch dragging issue. The loose lever on 1-2 shift shaft wouldn't have anything to do with grinding into reverse. The loose lever would have made your shifter feel odd, maybe difficult to find 1st because the gate wouldn't always line up, but once found it wouldn't make it difficult to go into gear. The syncro prevents it from going into gear until it brings the spinning gears to a stop. If there's something trying to keep those gears spinning it takes more pressure than normal to stop the gears and let it engage. Other signs of a warped friction disc or improperly adjusted pressure plate fingers is if, with the normal amount of pedal free play, the clutch starts to engage very close to the floor end of it's travel.

Unless you really enjoyed the experience of removing that trans (removing it was the easy part ) don't put it back together without going through it completely and regardless of how they appear, replace the syncro rings. The o'haul kit gives you the bearings, gaskets, synchros and seals. If you are buying a used frt bearing retainer check it closely for wear at the point the release bearing slides. A ridge will cause it to hang up.
Steve g

 

I have used these:http://www.5speeds.com/muncie.htm and www.muncie4speed.net.
Both are a resource for good info.

 

The only problems I was having was 1st was hard to find and reverse was hard to engage. I never had any grinding or clunking. My bearing retainer had a 1/4 crack running down it, Im going to try and weld it up today. If it doesnt work, its still the cheapest of all the parts. All my synchro rings look good and shiny, nice edges and virtually no signs of wear. I really think I have a bunck of small issues that led up to a general mess. The clutch is still attached to the car. Is there any way to check it without removing the whole thing?

 

How much endplay should the 'input shaft' have? (The shaft that goes thru the bearing retainer.) Im getting a little side to side wiggle. Just a bit up and down, not in and out.

 

It's quite possible the damage was done with a previous clutch in there and that was since rectified. I can tell you with absolute certainty that someone at some time had trouble with it grinding into reverse. That's what damaged those gears. Does your clutch start to engage the motor fairly close to the floor but not fully engage until close to the top or does it all happen in a short amount of clutch travel closer to the top?

In either case it would be sheer folly to not look at the clutch at this point.

It sounds like you are judging the condition of the synchros by the condition of the teeth. That's not what wears out on them. The inner circumference is an inverse cone that that rides on a cone on the adjacent gear. As you start to put it in gear pressure is applied on the synchro and the cone acts as a brake. The circumference of the cone on the synchro, because it is a braking surface, wears over time. Eventually the synchro ring's outer circumference bottoms out on the adjacent gear before the synchro can apply enough braking on the cone surfaces to stop the spinning gears. Then you start to get period grinding on shifts. You will have had accelerated wear because your trans was running in a bath of grinding compound with all those gear bits in there. It took out your ext housing bushing and yoke already.

It sounds like you may be missing the most essential piece in your tool collection, the factory service manual. Of all the money you could spend on that car that would be the most cost effective. You really need to know what you're looking for and proper information on assembly procedures. You need to be looking at end play and thrust washer conditions on your counter gear, counter shaft wear ...

Steve g

 

The clutch engaged normally, everything happens at the 'top' portion of travel like its supposed too. Im working out of a Chiltons manual, but my biggest hangup is inexperience with transmissions and budget. I dont want to tear this thing open and screw it up or create problems that dont already exist. The car ran fine, shifted fine, did everything fine other than the shifter itself was a beyotch to manipulate. Im quickly biting off more than I can chew here. Its not that Im afraid to o the work, Im just at a loss as where to start...

 

I can't offer any advice, I just want to subscribe. Lots of good information being tossed around.

 

If the clutch has been operating properly but is nearing wear out, the pretty much the only downside to putting it back together like that is having to redo all the work.

However, the worst thing you can do for your trans is not tear it apart completely, especially in light of what you've found so far. Items that are about to fail or are worn beyond serviceabvle limits will fail and damage other very expensive parts. Not uncommon to have a failed mainshaft, worn bores in the case where the counter shaft fits, broken pieces going through and breaking a tooth on the cluster, etc...

Lots of things work fine until they don't anymore. You are in a position now to prevent some very costly damage down the road. Doing your inspection based on budget constrainsts may is counterproductive.

Chilton manuals are fine for some very general things, but lack specifics on more indepth repairs. You will not find trans internal specs and procedures in most unless it is a transmission specific edition and even those are not great. Years ago that was all we had and you made do. but after working with factory manuals you would throw rocks at your old Chiltons. A factory service manual gives you everything you need to properly maintain and repair that car.

Steve g

 

OK, I fully understand that the best course of action would be to tear it down and do a complete rebuild. However, Im not convinced it needs it. So, what should I look for right now to send me over the edge and spend a few hundred more? What specs do I check? (This way, when I do find something I can say "Im glad I looked" rather than "I just tore this apart and didnt find any problems")

Now honestly, anything can be taken apart. How easy is it to put back together? Based on your knowledge, would it save me the headache to take the case to a shop for a rebuild or is this something that goes together as easily as it comes apart? Any special tools? I see the manual calls for several kinds of snap ring pliers...and Im going to need a puller to get that danm speedo drive off....

 

A&Reds Transmission Parts
3737 W. 29th S.
Wichita, KS 67217
316-942-5300
800-835-1007

These guys have lots of parts. They generally sell to transmission rebuilders but also sell to public.

 

Rebuild is exactly that, building it again. What parts go back in it depends on what you find. It does not mean you replace everything in sight. You may find nothing more wrong with it and all that you will have gained is the knowledge that you now know what you have and you have washed the metal filings out of it and thereby extending it's service life. Synchro rings are like brake shoes and tires, they are a wear item and should be replaced unless you know they are quite new. Especially in a trans running with lots of filings in it. All gaskets and seals get replaced, including those on the shift shafts (common point of leakage). The ball bearings are quite likely reuseable. As with everything else, wash them out thoroughly with solvent and put a couple of drops of oil on them. If they spin smoothly with no noise, reuse them.

Check end play in the counter gear with a feeler gauge before you disassemble it and compare to spec. If it's out of spec check the case and the thrust surface on the gears when you have it apart. If all okay new thrust washers will clean that up. Remove the shaft from the cluster and let the cluster drop into the bottom of the case. You can now pull the input shaft and bearing out. For reassembly you go to Home depot and buy a piece of 7/8" or 1" (depending on your counter shaft pin size) and cut it exactly to the length of the cluster gear. This is one of the tools you need for reassembly. The others are the snap ring pliers and possibly a bearing splitter and press if you have to replace the pressed on bearings.

Once the counter shaft is out check it for wear where the bearings run. Look for pitting or galling on it as well. Check the bearing surface inside the cluster as well. Thoroughly wash everything with solvent.

The main shaft you inspect the parts as you take them off the shaft once you've removed the snap rings and speedo gear. You don't need the special speedo gear removal tool. You use the same kind of bearing splitter you use on any other bearings and set it in the press.

Do you need to have someone else do it? I don't know. I find them easy, but I've been a Journeymen for almost 40 years and have done dozens. On the scale of difficulty, I would say not very. Some investment/access to tools and equipment is required. Do know that if you take it in they will replace everything in sight. It's called insurance on their part. They're expected to warranty it and they wouldn't dream of reusing bearings.

Steve g

 

Pay attention to Steve, he is dead on. The 5 speed bunch have a good dvd on the rebuild, Around about 24$ Clean, inspect ask questions don't guess.

 

Steve, you have convinced me to rebuild it, even though everything inside the case looks good. Ive got the mechanical experience, dog knows Ive rebuilt enough cars and done enough complicated work to do this.

I know all my gears are good, I know the synchros appear to be good from the exterior. Is there a 'basic' rebuild kit I should be looking for? If Im going to have it torn apart, shouldnt I just replace the bngs? (I dont have a press, but I can find one)

What are the most common mistakes I need to avoid?