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No I never go onto those sites. Limited time in my life, to just do the Corvette stuff.
I have had three Camaro ownerships. My first Ermine White RS Black (yes Z-28, but far from looking nice, primer when I had it) vinyl top was a Harry Mann car. My Blue 69 Z28 (JL-8 J-56 brakes) Baher Chevrolet car and I had ownership for a month of a 70-1/2 Hugger Z-28.
I have seen that Jon Mello guy around, I have taken facts he has researched, and seen a few things I shared end up with him. I dont want to mention a few of the Camaro experts I have chatted with, most want my stuff, but weren't generally super inviting or friendly outside of just wanting things I own. Take take take. After helping one guy, I asked for one thing that I thought he wasn't wanting in trade, and got a big no! As he was attached to it. I asked for another thing, but they wanted more from me first. I said oh well, broke off communication after initially feeling sorry about not finishing interactions, I then realized, I am getting zero actually in this friendship. Camaro guys dont like Corvette guys, even if you are an ex Camaro gear head, having some of the best of the best.
Why?
And I gave everyone a whole lot of research finds in this thread, as I have other threads. If I didn't keep running afoul of the Investor crowd, I would share more of what I do for this particular hobby.
Camaro guys except maybe that Mello guy, who shares, pure enthusiast, most are generally the investor crowd,so I would not get along.
I was researching the first big block distributions to the drag racers. Covered too like Motion and the first L88 drop. I got into Grumpy not liking the ZL-1, so he ran the Reynolds blocks. Etc
Last edited by TCracingCA; 10-04-2020 at 07:18 PM.
I sold my 1969 L88 Corvette to Otis Chandler, through Greg Joseph, and took Greg to St. Louis to meet Dick Ferrando, the then owner of the white ZL1 car.
Why did you do that? He owned enough of them already. At the time of that visit, he was acquiring the best of the best Muscle car collection. He had COPO, Motion, Grand Spalding, Royal, etc type stuff all over in his place. He wasn't expecting to run into a conversation about his past, talking about the old days, like working with my Father, and we missed lunch, so we did an early casual dinner. He asked what car he should take, I smiled and said the Porsche 917, I saw his dilemma on his face, so the ZL-1 was parked conveniently, so I tapped that fender. I offered to cover the gas! He laughed.
I should have a better picture somewhere of your car, but it was parked in good Company (ZR-1), picture shared.
PS he was an avid hunter, my Father and him took a trip to Alaska, and one to like Montana I think. My father took his old long barrel 30-30 Winchester. They were shooting buddies.
Last edited by TCracingCA; 10-03-2020 at 06:57 PM.
Why did you do that? He owned enough of them already. At the time of that visit, he was acquiring the best of the best Muscle car collection. He had COPO, Motion, Grand Spalding, Royal, etc type stuff all over in his place. He wasn't expecting to run into a conversation about his past, talking about the old days, like working with my Father, and we missed lunch, so we did an early casual dinner. He asked what car he should take, I smiled and said the Porsche 917, I saw his dilemma on his face, so the ZL-1 was parked conveniently, so I tapped that fender. I offered to cover the gas! He laughed.
I should have a better picture somewhere of your car, but it was parked in good Company (ZR-1), picture shared.
PS he was an avid hunter, my Father and him took a trip to Alaska, and one to like Montana I think. My father took his old long barrel 30-30 Winchester. They were shooting buddies.
I sold my 1969 L-88 to him in April of 1987, when Greg Joseph was going around the country buying cars for the start of the collection. When Greg came to Missouri to inspect my car and pay me for it, he asked if I knew of the ZL-1 located there in the midwest. I explained that not only did I know of the car, I knew the owner, Dick Ferrando. He wanted to see the car while he was there, so with the help of Roger Gibson, we set up a meet and Greg was introduced to Ferrando and the white ZL-1 was offered to him for sale. Roger Gibson would later restore several of the collection cars, including the Dodge Charger Daytona. My car is in the American Muscle book, and I have an autographed copy of the book, a gift from Otis Chandler. Thank You for your interest.
Otis Chandler autographed and sent me a copy of the book Randy Leffingwell did of the collection.
5th
Super cool! The Book I had signed was about Los Angeles Times headlines from their beginning days to like 1987. My visit was in one of my C2 roadsters, and I think that had to be 1988. I do have that same book you mentioned. Maybe I should have went back out got that one signed. That was the last time I saw him. I know he wasn't running the paper. My Father went to his funeral about 15 years ago. His collection long sold off I believe. I always considered signatures, as a part of their soul. When I get them, I dont tell them. Some non-Celebrities I have had sign something, look at me funny. I grew up with the Times, so that is a lot of memories for me.
Here is one of our early Times GP Corvette Paddock visits below and a second race attendance at the ARRC. We convoyed out with the Corvette Auto Parts guys, and a couple of the JD Corvette guys. I also threw up the 1966 HD racer, competing against the 1967 L88 car.
Two bottom pictures October 1966 Times, and the two top are the 1966 ARRC SCCA season end championship.
Last edited by TCracingCA; 10-04-2020 at 07:27 PM.
firstgenaddict, your comment about the first 69 ZL1 cars being later in production is right on. Which is another reason there wasn't early build 69 corvettes that left the factory with ZL1 engines. If there was a second ZL1 corvette based on GM records, it would have to be after Sept 1969 when the yellow car was built.
Hi. I have a mint 1 April 69 ZL-1 block (052....I think its an over the counter) that I'm putting together. I was wondering if you knew what fuel pump the yellow ZL-1 uses....the 40731 rebuildable, or the 40718? I have 98% of the date period correct parts, including 882 alternator, 4296 carb,210 coil, mint 074 heads, original 927 tagged distributor, and NOS Packard wires. I just need a 928 water pump, 5 blade fan/clutch, and the fuel pump. I'm the guy that sold the 0-294550 to Kevin Mackay. Thanks. Semper Fi. John Davis (ZL1Johnny@yahoo.com)
firstgenaddict, your comment about the first 69 ZL1 cars being later in production is right on. Which is another reason there wasn't early build 69 corvettes that left the factory with ZL1 engines. If there was a second ZL1 corvette based on GM records, it would have to be after Sept 1969 when the yellow car was built.
The highest Camaro ZL1 VIN correlates to the end of MAY. which means that all 69 units of the ZL1 Camaro had been completed prior to the Yellow Corvette's assembly at the end of June.
This makes sense, seeing that the program was for homologation purposes it would be really stupid to miss the required number of units because you wound up using the engines in other models... I had kinda wondered about the homologation and ensuring there were enough Camaro's completed before spreading the engines out to the vettes...IMHO the last thing anyone at Chevrolet would have wanted was to be a couple cars short of homologation.
Another issue with the Orange corvette being built so early...
Fred Gibb stated he did not even know the cost of the cars prior to receiving the first two on New Years Day. When it turned out they were over 7 grand a copy(he thought they would be $4900) he was only able to sell 13 of them, Chevrolet took the remaining cars back beginning in MAY and redistributed them through other dealers. If the major beneficiary of the program didn't know the cost until Jan 1st seems unlikely another dealer would have ordered one without being able to give a estimate of the price... AND if a dealer had already been invoiced it seems Chevrolet would have been able to give Gibb a number closer to actual invoice vs one that was 30% low.
Here are the numbers of each specific Suffix code as recorded by Tonawanda. . ME 80 - vette 4 spd
MG 14 - vette auto
ML 54 - Camaro 4 spd
MM 34 - Camaro auto
I guess the majority of those ME's and MG's ended up in racecars or race boats and eventually got decked.
Someone earlier in the discussion said something about PILOT cars...
The Broadcast sheet for the First ZL1 Camaro states.
SHIP 12/30 ESTES REQUEST RED HOT
PILOT 427 ENGINE OPTION 9560 BA
FWIW (BA is ZL1 Auto) (AA is ZL1 4 spd)
Sheet is from the Camaro Research Group site...
Last edited by firstgenaddict; 10-16-2020 at 10:47 PM.
Would the ECL code for the automatic be the same on a L71 auto or a L88 auto?
I see on the Orange Car's tank sheet the TH400 ecl is AD
The fake window sticker has a ecl of AF...
What is the ECL for a TH400 behind the L88?
firstgenaddict, your comment about the first 69 ZL1 cars being later in production is right on. Which is another reason there wasn't early build 69 corvettes that left the factory with ZL1 engines. If there was a second ZL1 corvette based on GM records, it would have to be after Sept 1969 when the yellow car was built.
Actually, GM production records show that TWO 1969 Corvette ZL1 were built AND SHIPPED through September 1969. This report was for the "normal" 1969 model year, while a later second report at the end of the extended 1969 model year that totaled ALL production for 1969 through December 1969 showed again that only TWO RPO ZL1 were produced.
Last edited by rynoshark; 01-04-2021 at 01:15 PM.
Reason: Sorry, attributed to wrong dated document.
I would love to see those GM records can you post a picture? If you are saying that both Zl1 cars were shipped prior to 7/17/69 that would be incorrect as the yellow car was built after 7/69.
@DKM-106, sorry, I had noted the wrong dated doc. The correct is below and listed production totals through September 1969 (not July as I had mistakenly typed). The Daytona Yellow ZL1 was ordered September 7, 1969 and completed assembly per the trim tag on September 11, 1969 (N11). I don't have a reference as to what GM's official production date was for the Daytona Yellow ZL1 (presumably either September 11 or September 12, 1969).
Here is a copy of the two documents and my analysis of these two documents:
Would the ECL code for the automatic be the same on a L71 auto or a L88 auto?
I believe for the L88 auto it should be the same ECL as used on the ZL1 (since the ZL1 also required the L88 package). Note, the ECL code for a given option is not necessarily the same during an entire model year, as production line revisions may occur for specific option packages.
For L88s build during the last week of November 1968 and onwards for some period of time, received A(D) ECL coded M40. This is documented by Chevrolet's Central Office Notice of Production Change 69-299 (which was requested on November 21, 1968 and then became effective November 26, 1968) which covers a change to the engine assembly for automatic option for "1969 - 19400 w/RPO 2-M40 A(D)" for L88-spec cars with automatic option. Further, the NPC 69-299 memo states that all L88-spec engines built with M40 (ELC revision AD) were were to be built with closed chamber heads, since the open chamber head (3946074) design was not yet available. Specifically the change was to use part 3967832 closed-chamber engine assembly, instead of the 3955131 open-chamber assembly. As the heads were shared with the ZL1, any ZL1s produced during late November 1968 would also have received closed chamber heads (without any broadcast code change). The closed-chamber assembly installation became effective for RPO L88 and RPO ZL1 until an approved 3955131 open-chamber L88-style engine assembly became available.
The second ZL1 may have been built in September of 69. If so it would have to be after the build date of the Yellow car. Due to issues with the production of the Yellow ZL1 officially left the plant Dec 24th 1969.
Per annotations on Chevrolet's internal NPC "Notice of Production Change C69-39" documentation, the first date that a ZL1 engine assembly was available for production installation at the St. Louis Corvette assembly plant for a Corvette with option RPO ZL1 was December 9, 1968.
Further, the separate internal Chevrolet document "Notice of Production Change C69-39, Supplement 1" indicates with annotations that the first day parts were available for building a Corvette with a M40 automatic option for RPO ZL1 was also December 9, 1968.
In the absence of any other internal Chevrolet documentation, the data from these NPC documents indicate it appears that on—or within days—of December 9th, 1968 the first Corvette with option "RPO ZL1" was built. Further, based on this documentation, any Corvette built prior to that date which may have had an aluminum ZL1 type engine installed would not have been with the "RPO ZL1" option code. Given the Daytona Yellow ZL1 is well documented to have been built in September 1969, these would be the two bookend RPO ZL1s.
NOTE: All internal Chevrolet documents referenced above have been uncovered at GM's Heritage Center within the last two years.
I can just tell you, talking to GM management who was working at the Corvette plant in St. Louis at the time that the Yellow car was built, that the yellow car was the first corvette that was fitted with he ZL1 motor and ZL1 stripe. When the second one was built I can't tell you.
The great news for us Corvette enthusiasts and historians is that a number of documents related directly to development and production of the L88 and ZL1 have been uncovered within GM's Heritage Center. These were created by Chevrolet executives in 1968 and 1969, with exact dates, and paint a fairly clear picture of the timeline for ZL1 production. Many myths, hearsay and foggy memories have been passed down for decades, much of which is not backed up by actual facts or data (and, in some cases, are at odds with GM records).
Summary of key findings:
per November 21, 1968 memo the L88 variants (including ZL1) were to be built ONLY with closed-chamber heads, effective November 26, 1968, until the open-chamber head was available (which is also noted on this document as not until late March 1969) [Notice of Production Change C69-299]
on December 9, 1968 the "427 CUBIC INCHES ZL1” console badge (part 3958746) released and was first available on that date in St Louis for installation in production cars [Notice of Production Change C69-39]
on December 9, 1968, the M40 automatic transmission parts released and was first available in St Louis on that date for production of the RPO ZL1 option [Notice of Production Change C69-39, Supplement 1]
on or within days of December 9 1968, the first RPO ZL1 rolled off the St Louis plant assembly line [Notice of Production Change C69-39, Supplement 1]
on August 1, 1969 the RPO option ZL1 was officially cancelled for the 1970 model year, and the aluminum ZL1 engine would only be offered as a service assembly [Corvette Engineering Center memo]
So here is the short story on the yellow car. It was special ordered by George H. a manager at the corvette plant. He was fully involved in the production of the car including watching the ZL1 engine get put in and the RPO stripe put on. Ed Tesky at the plant applied the striping for George multiple times because they couldn't get it exactly right. George ordered the car with options you see on the car today and the sticker price was over $10k. One interesting fact is that the car took longer than expected to build due to delays and George was at the plant late the night it was finished up. He drove it out of the plant and within a few stop lights a 1968 GT500 pulled up. As George drove off the guy in the Shelby sped up to catch up to the yellow Zl1. Finally when they reached the next stop light George rolled down his window. He thought the guy in GT500 wanted to race, but actually the guy said "Hey mister, your car is smoking!" George looked down to see smoke by the door. So George drove the car back to the plant and come to find out the insulation from the side exhaust cover was on top of the side exhaust and started to burn. He later arrived home, late for a dinner party and his wife was not all too happy
George drove the car for a bit then got transferred to another GM plant. The ZL1 was offered to other GM employees with around 1900 miles on the od, but no one was interested in a corvette at that price. It sat in the corner of the corvette plant for a number of months until Hechler Chevrolet in Va agreed to take the car. They had it on their showroom floor alongside a yellow 1969 ZL1 Camaro. There is a lot more history to be shared on the car, but it is a real production ordered ZL1, and the first one to leave the plant that way. I am not saying that there weren't mule cars, press cars and proving ground cars, there were. But IMHO there was not another factory produced ZL1 before the yellow one.
Sorry for dragging up this old post but there is mention of a Yellow ZL1 Camaro in the Hechler showroom alongside the Yellow ZL1 Corvette. There were only two yellow ZL1 Camaro's built and neither were sold at Hechler. Per Yenko.net they were sold at Berger in Mi. and Brewer's in Ky.
10-02-2020, 01:59 PM
