I think alot of it comes down to how much they pay the guy turning the bolts to put it together.

Which is a shame because IMHO, the people in charge let this stuff go. How many car forums have had the discussion about USA tools Vs. Harbor Freight?

And really, who can fault someone just trying to get by? The reality is that the fat cats on top sold out US manufacturing a long time ago.

I think it is terrible how many shops I've seen close.

 

Changing the engine is easier than changing the spark plugs on the LT1 motors! We've taken a motor out in 2.25 hrs before whereas the plugs take a lot longer. But our older cars are a lot easier to work with I agree.

Nicholas

 

Mass production is what drove car prices down. A crate engine built in a shop that builds hundreds or thousands / month will have better quality given they have a quality control dept. CNC machining on sorted parts for quality control. This vs. the typical shop that has one person doing the work. I am not knocking the small shop. I have built many engines my self.. But my clean room isn't nearly as clean as the GM clean room. I have toured GM, Ford and Aston Martin factories and I can assure you precision is really the name of the game. This doesn't mean GM doesn't put a 00 LS1 that uses oil. That was an engineering error. I have a 454 that needs rebuilding and want to have it rebuilt, but I need a shop to do it for a numbers match engine. So now I expect to pay more $$,, But,, when I ask what the valve stem to guide clearance I expect an answer. I have had shops tell me, "we just knurrel and go back to standard" without verification of measurement. So for my 87 I was looking at the ZZ4,, for my 99 It would be crate,, for the 454, custom rebuild. Just my $.02 worth. 99 Nassau blue

 

My vote is the crate engine.

2 yrs ago I bought an expensive Rodeck alum block engine with Brodix heads from a shop that builds circle track engines and does contract work for GM's 4 cyl engine development. Everything was suppose to be machined and blueprinted to within a gnat's whisker.

Glad I did a leak down test before installing the engine. Imagine my disgust when I figured out the valves did not seal on the seats!!! And to think I only paid some $8k for it...

 

The biggest thing that gets me was the small mom and pop shop where I got the machining on 406ci done. I assembled it but the help I got from the guy who owned the shop was the reason it is running good now. Hard to find anyone that will answer any questions once you give them the money and you can't even really ask any questions if it's a crate motor.

Most of the local shops are like that too, they are really nice till they get your money and after that they don't want to be bothered with you. THis guy was really good. he would take the time to talk to you and answer your questions just about any time I walked in, you can't put a price on that, shame he went under

 

Motorhead have you any knowledge or info on Shafiroff racing or
Steve Schimdt racing both sell crate engines. Thanks

 

Please understand I am not voicing ANY opinion/knowledge of any shop in particular, but the hot third rail of the car buisness is .....

DRUGS.....

seen many a shop blow up when the owner (s) went to blow it all up their nose, happened to a successful Caddy mechanic up the street from me here a couple years ago....lost his house and everything, gotta have that damn cocaine, wife got him hooked on it....had a couple of kids too.....

freaking NUTS....

GENE

 

I don't have any personaal experience with either shops, others here have bought their motors. I don't normally post anything I have "heard" but I don't think you can go wrong with a Shafiroff engine, other than a lighter wallet, but HP cost money and if you want quality then it costs even more

 

I guess I'm obligated to speak up on this one....

I closed my own shop in 1996.

Had just converted all 3 of my buildings to city sewer from septic. That set me back about $40K. Property was commercial (on Rt 46 in NJ).
With the EPA breathing down my neck, I had a 2000 gallon buried fuel oil tank filled with foam even though it passed a vacuum test and did not leak. That cost $2800. Property taxes were $9000/year. Health insurance for a family of 4, $650/month. Liability insurance..... well... you get the picture.

Machinists are people too. Not all of them are coke addicts. I don't have an "addictive" personality, so that was not an issue for me.

Everybody likes a deal. We all look for the most bang for our buck. Myself included. To do an engine "right" takes time.... lots of it. You cannot debate an engine into balance. It's a manual process. Measure, re-measure, and measure again. When I finished with a block it was right... but it took a long time. Attention to detail is what makes a winning engine. Detail takes time, and time is money. When I added up the hours I was spending trying to put out a good product, and the costs associated with running a shop in the USA, I figured I could make more money, with less stress by making donuts or flipping hamburgers.

And this is without the added competition of the shops outside the border with no EPA, high taxes, or liability insurance to deal with. Where do most crate engines get built? Where do most "rebuilt" engines get rebuilt? Starters? Alternators? Water pumps? Brake shoes?

CNC is not what one might think it is..... it doesn't carry the block from your pickup bed, clean it, load it onto the machine, set up all of the parameters and tooling, monitor the process, clean it again, and manually measure/inspect to make sure the machine didn't mess up, and clean the CNC equipment when it's done.

I had to make a choice... enjoy the "manly" rewards of running my own machine shop, or take care of my family. I chose the latter.

Most of my friends (business associates) who also ran machine shops in NJ were living day-to-day. The cost of equipment is staggering. Small pieces are over $10K. A small shop will have half a mil in equipment. Without volume, and with high cost of ownership/operation, the equipment won't generate a sufficient cash flow to even pay on the loan, let alone support a family at the poverty level.

A friend of mine owned a powder coating business in Paterson NJ. The EPA rode his a$$ out of business. Once they get their teeth into you, you're dead meat. What's the name of the EPA counterpart in Mexico?

I always took the time to explain what I was doing for my customers if they showed any interest at all. This also took time. I'm like "Mr Science"... just loved talking tech with people. I share.

So... I sold the property, sold most of the equipment, washed my hands and moved to warmer weather... without a job. Things worked out, and I'm putting 2 daughters through college (one now in graduate school, the other soon to follow)... paying cash for it. Could absolutely never have done that if I stayed in NJ in the machine shop business.

When you think about a machine shop.... don't think "Home Depot". The rules are different. Mom & Pop have bills to pay too.

So... the speculation above is correct for the most part.

PS- Shannon... I'm doing valve guides in a SBC.... you're welcome to come, watch & learn if you want. You can pick up that tool you were asking about as well.

 

Good explanation Tom. It's the Wal-Mart "make it as cheap as possible and wherever doesn't matter" mentality that's ruining small businesses all around the country. And not just ones that deal with Wal-Mart. I'm a capitalist all the way but it isn't fair when other countries don't have to play by the same rules (EPA, taxes, labor laws, etc.). Our trade agreements are anything but fair.
On the other hand I'm not proud of it but I bought a Mexican crate engine and shop at Wal-Mart all the time. I hate that store above all others but I'm also not rich enough to make a political statement with how I spend my money.

 

Thanks for the reply Tom, the cheap thing is having an effect on my line of business in telecommucations, people want cheap they don't care about quality and China is helping big time in this respect

I know how long it takes to do a good job building a motor and for the price of one of these crate engines there is no way they are doing anythhing other that just bolting them togethher with cheap parts and praying

 

I think the availability of crate engines has alot to do with it.

 

I know out side looking in I've been wanting to snap up some of the cam and crank grinders... but I dont have room or the know how to run them!

Ranks up there with, "I'd LOVE to do it." But I just dont see that I could turn that into a hobby that pays for its self.

With all Norvals talk of shoeing horses he's got me thinking that may be the way to go!

 

I get PO'D! everytime I hear the phrase "crate motor". My good friend owns a machine shop in Fremont, CA (AEPM 510 656-9352 in case you want a quality motor, tell Dan that Eric sent you.) My friend Dan works average of 52+ hour work weeks, dosen't spend lots of money on himself and gives a quality product with "backing" when the motor is delivered (not always on the promised date, stuff happens! and rather than ship it wrong, Dan will do his best to make it right before it goes out the door.) Dan takes home less money a year than I do and he owns about $700K worth of machine tools to make that salary, I on the other hand only own about $30K worth of toolss to make my living. Anyone who thinks their "crate motor" is asuperior product is sadly mistaken and dosen't have the slightest "clue" about the performance and operation of a high performance engine (my 72 LT-1 355 cu/in Vette cosistantly runs 12 second 1/4 miles while winning at the autocross races, it has in excess of 14K miles on the motor at this time and date and has been in the Vette since 1997.) There is not a single "crate motor" that would have lasted under the conditions I subject my Vette to: 7000+RPM operating speeds at the autocross races, 3200RPM clutch "dumps" at the drags and miles of "street" operation at various speeds (4100RPM@65MPH with the 4.56 "drag gears" in the car, not too many long trips with that set-up.) Dan builds motors for local circle track racers and also SCCA "A sedan" 305 cu/in Chevys and 302 cu/in Fords (this series uses Camaros/Mustangs/Firebirds in a "spec rule" format.) Dan bulit a 305cu/in Chevy for alocal racer that cost around $9K and will OUTRUN a $25K Huffaker Engineering engine in the same class (also Rebello Racing motors.) The racer prefers to keep Dan's shop a "secret" as he dosen't want the competition knowing about his "Unfair Advantage" in racing. The rebuilt motor from Dan may run more that a "crate motor" and not be "instant gratification" like the GM crate engine but, you will have a motor that runs faster for a longer amount of time if your willing to wait for the SUPERIOR MOTOR.

 

i think a lot of it is that to few people understand what goes into building something or fabricating stuff. i recently built my first SBC but i had done complete motorcyles and engines before. if you have never tried to turn a raw piece of steel into somethink useable, if you have never fit a set of piston rings how can you have any idea of the time involved in doing it right. i have watched friends of mine spend 10 hours fabricating something , no way he can charge what he should. the customer would freek. Then a lot of the people who do know what that kind of work is worth like to do it themselves, for fun. so to most people it's a no brainer, GM crate motor with a warrenty or the local speed shop guy who either has to charge twice as much for one done right or take shortcuts to be in the same ballpark pricewise as GM.

 

Yup...

And as much as I enjoyed "doing it right", my familys needs were more important than my own. So I sold out.

I don't know where Dan fits in the scheme of socio-economic order, but most of my peers in NJ were living at the edge of poverty.... just scraping to get by. I was heading in that direction as well.

I'm still building engines, doing repair work, and "enjoying the hobby", but not professionally. Just wasn't worth it to me.

RE: Doing machine work as a "profitable hobby"... I don't think it will work. New parts are too cheap. You have to add in the total cost associated with the operation.... including phone (%) electric, HVAC, time spent ordering supplies, supplies, equipment maintenance, square footage dedicated to the equipment, etc. Any money you invest in equipment has to be analysed in terms of opportunity cost... if you invested the money elsewhere, what would your rate of return be? And you will always need one more piece of equipment.... or attachment. It becomes a money pit real fast.

"Profit" is a business term... not defined by emotion. When you start rationalizing it by omitting the true cost of operation, it's a "slip-sliding-away" situation. Been there, done that.

 

Very sad reflection of where this country is today. Our people are not learning about manufacturing because it's going overseas for cheap labor. Here in CT we used to have the best shops around and the talent to go with it. Between the cost of doing business in CT and the Feds, companies have been leaving for the past 25 years. We're importing everything it seems these days as China ramps up, pushing up the cost of steel, oil, etc.

Gary