Like I posted a few minutes ago I have nothing to base my prejudice on. Nothing but visual impressions and nowing a Grand Am is not a full size car.
I also run 265 x 40 x 18 tires on the front so that has got to put alot of stress on the steering system. NOt to mention 100 plus in some of the turns. Most Grand ams are never subjected to this much stress.
Just look at the whimpy tires on those cars.
Will the rack survive big tires and hard cornering?? Only time will tell.

 

Norval,
I respect what you have seen, and knowing what your car weighs helps a lot. After your response, my next question, is why the Grand Am box? I have no doubt about the strength of a properly designed R&P; they're used is full size trucks now. I think I will start a new thread so your's doesn't get lost in any argument. Again, I may go with the Jeep box route, I'm just behind in the research.

Ken

 

What is a Grand Am box?? I am using a Jeep box from 1999 and newer. Mine is from a 2003.
If the grand am rac is being used in full size vehicles including full size trucks why don't we just ask at the part counter for a full size truck unit??? Knowing I was asking for a new full size truck would make me feel it is a better unit.
Look underneath a vet with the steroid rac. Does it look cluttered? Does the steering universals inspire confidence??? If you hit something on the road is the rac the first thing that takes a beating???
Funny I was laying under a 2005 F250 tonight with a 6 inch lift kit, 35 x 18 inch tires and he was having a problem with his rack and the big tires. It made weard noises every time you turned the wheel.
They sure look skiny, those little aluminum racks??

 

A couple of shots of the steroids system. It is a plate that would allow you to retain different length tie rod sleeves for bump settings.

It is slightly lower then the oil pan. I guess that would be good if you bottomed out for some reason

 

Norval,
I meant Grand Am unit. Also, I meant that rack and pinion technology is used on full size trucks, not the same unit. As a matter of fact, GM uses the rack and pinion front and rear on their trucks with 4 wheel steering. I am never surprised to hear about people with lifted trucks having steering problems. I've never really understood the people who lift a truck like that. I sure hope I don't end up underneath one of those trucks in my Vette.

Ken

 

Ken I asked this question before when I decide to do something with my steering. After alot of input and a couple of private emails that I can not share it was decided that the Jeep box was a better way to go. WHO DECIDED? I guess I did after two particular emails from respected people. I can not post them since they were given to me instead of being posted for others to see.
After doing the install I am really glad I went this way. It is a nice neat setup that leaves a clean undercarriage.

Ken my oil pan clears the road by about 3 or 4 inches. Do I really want a rack hanging down closer to the road then that? It appears to subtract at least another inch from your ground clearance.

 

Norval,
I may very well end up going with the box as opposed to the rack. I want to do some research of my own. I'm way behind you from a bump steer issue, so I need to work on that as well. I have a suspension simulator program I am going to use, and I am also going to be considering the stress in the tie rods. I've never had clearance problems with the pan, but it's only a matter of time. I'll try to keep everyone posted of the research I do.

Thanks
Ken

 

there is the multiple universal in the steering shaft and that is the only thing about the steeroids set up i'm not crazy about. i don't have any problems with it but i would like it if it were cleaner. My rack and pinon system is very close to the same height as the oil pan certainly +/- 1/2", there is certainly less clutter under the car with the rack and pinon then all the original stuff, i'm not sure how your system compares to the original set up in relation to the PS slave cylinder, etc. if you have done lots of work on your drag link set up i can see why you would want to keep it. and in fact i'm glad you did some thing different, i don't have the engineering ability or time to fabricate stuff so I happily rely on assembled kits, its good to see something different going on, i was kind of hoping you would create a variable speed unit, that would be exciting.

 

Hey guys, I have been running the jeep box for about 3 years and 25000 miles on my 63. I put one on my son 73 also and both of us would not drive a c2 3 without making the conversion. I did it before anyone had a kit. But now tom at Corvette steering has a complete kit. He solves the pitman arm problem by turning down the pitman shaft so your stock pitman arm fits right on the box with no problem. He also solves the rag joint problem. I have not seen his mounting adapter but for the money you would be way ahead to buy the kit and bolt it on in 3 or 4 hours.

The best thing about the box is that you great road feel and good feed back. It is also 2.25 turns lock to lock. It really makes you look like a auto cross driver. The other nice thing about the box is that I have been told that the power system has modern torsion dampening system which gives you such a good feel. I run 245 45 17 wheels and tires all around. My son runs 255 45 17 on 9.5 zr1 wheels.

I have been modifing and driving this car for over 30 years and 200000 miles and if I had to choose only 1 mod the steering box would be the one I would do. Hope this sheds some light on the subject, SSS

The bottom line

 

Norval, how does a universal handle the axial offset between the steering shaft and the box input? It is pretty slight but I wonder if it will cause side loads, especially when things start flexing? This is what the rag joint is for in our cars isn't it?

-Chris

 

Thanks silverslashsteak. It is nice to hear a positive feedback. Did you make you own kit by using the existing 3 holes or did you go my route and cut the frame and add a new section???
How did you solve the rag joint problem??? I lowered my box to match the steering shaft so it required a knotch in the frame.
Any input would be good for other guys. Mine is already in but others might need more insight. I did go to extremes to make it fit.

 

Chris I haven't installed the universal yet. I have a flaming river 3/4 inch double DD to our 1 inch 48 spline vet steering shaft.
I had to remachine the double DD because it was .050 too small. When I called flaming river to complain they just told me to talk to Tom. Not a great response. I just took the joint apart and remachined. I suspect but don't know that Tom would either have special ones made up or he cuts the input shaft down the extra .050.
I will know more at the end of the week. Vettr ordered the kit and I will have to go measure and see what Tom did.

I really worked on alignment. I used straight edges on either side of the shaft and got it very close.
I still have to pull the steering column and wire brush the 48 splines. Mine are fairly heavily painted and for the joint to fit you should use a wire wheel and clean them all out then slide the shaft throught the firewall and at the same time feed it into the steering box.
The end of the steering shaft is slightly flexible and I was hopping for a good enought alignment without adjusting the plate on the end of the steering column.
If alignment proves to be out I would just slightly shift the mounting plate that bolts to the firewall for more precise alignment.

 

Hey Norval and anyone interested, I used a 5/16 inch plate and mounted it to the frame using the stock bolt holes. I ran the 3/8 bolts from the inside of the frame through the plate and put the nuts on outside the frame and cut the remaining end of the bolts off so as not to rub the tire when turned to lock. I think it is important to use the stock holes so you can tighten the bolts without crushing the frame.

I then mounted the box on the steering column and mounted the pitman arm to the drag link and got everything in place the best I could, and then clamped the box to the plate. (You will need to cut as much spline off of the column , but leave just enough to slide the rag joint back on the steering shaft.) I then center punched the 4 mounting holes on the new box in the plate which was mounted to the frame. Then I pulled the plate and drilled the holes for the box and counter sank them from the frame side of the plate. Then I was able to mount the plate to the box and then mount the plate flat to the frame. At first I had concern as to the strength of the plate, but I have over 20000 miles on it and have checked it a couple times and it seems to not show any signs of cracking or flexing.

For the rag joint, I went to the junk yard and on mid 80s gm they used the correct double d rag joint the jeep box uses. I then used my coupler that came on the original steering shaft and put the 2 together. I used a borgenson u-joint for a while but I had to move the column to far back into the car for my taste, plus it did not isolate the road as much as I liked.

For the 67 thru 82 you don't have to cut the steering shaft, all you have to do is collapse it back into itself until you have just enough splines to connect your rag joint.

All that being said Tom has all these problems solved and I believe I could bolt his kit on in a afternoon and I think he is at about 700. bucks. Wish he had all this worked out about 3 years ago.

Norval, I have read with interest as you have been reducing bump steer on this chassis and I am very impressed, but I will just say that after putting this box on I almost don't notice the bump steer much any more unless I am on a very rough road.
Hope this helps some of you, SSS

 

Thanks SSS! What pittman arm did you use? It is great that it is working well for you and I can see this being a mod in my near future!

 

Silverslashstreak,
Do you recall what GM vehicle supplied the flexible coupling with the double D flange? I thought that I had checked with my contacts at Delphi Saginaw quite a while ago and they had indicated that they never produced a flexible coupling with a double D flange.

Saginaw Steering Gear (now Delphi Saginaw) produced millions of center takeoff (CTO) rack and pinion steering gears. They all had the same basic packaging dimensions. This meant that the housing mounting, pinion angle, and overall gear length was identical on all CTO racks. The things that varied were the tie rod lengths and design, valve efforts, and rack travel. They were only produced with two different C-factors 61.75 mm/rev and 53.48 mm/rev (rack movement in millimeters versus one rotation of the pinion).

You want to only use Saginaw CTO R&P gears that were produced after 1987. The later gears had cast iron valve bodies. The earlier gears had valve bodies that were aluminum and were plagued by "morning sickness."

The CTO gears were used on the following vehicles: Chevrolet Cavalier, Corsica, Beretta; Pontiac Sunbird, Grand Am; Olds Achieva, Cutlass Calais, Firenza; Buick Skylark, Skyhawk; Saab 104; Opel T and J-cars.

Quite frankly with respect to the C2/C3 installations, I was more concerned about the special offset plates that are needed to adapt tie rods to the Saginaw CTO rack. Having worked in the automotive industry for 39 years, I am familiar with the hundreds and hundreds of laboratory and vehicle tests that are conducted by component and automobile manufacturers in order to validate a design. Obviously, those resources are not available for installations as the above.

It certainly seems that the last several years of successful installations have proven that the CTO design is adequate and functioning well in the C2/C3 applications.

Jim

 

Is it just me, or is it sad that making a C3 steer like a Jeep is an improvement? I've driven late model Jeeps. Steering precision isn't their strong point.

 

The jeep steering ratio is quicker, gives better road feel, more responsive, better ground clearance, less hyds. Your steering a vette with a jeep box, not a jeep.

 

I realize that it is an improvement. I just don't think of Jeeps of having very good road feel or responsiveness. It's too bad you can't fit a late model BMW or Porsche steering system to the C3.

 

Well Norv, You shoulda been with me driving Topanga canyon trail, tailgating a Porsche all the way in a rented 98 Grand Am

I gave that rack and pinion a workout fer sure!

 

rcread,
I understand what you are saying. I have a jeep cherokee nad the steering is very responsive but the vehicle isn't. The suspension system causes this situation to exist. Sports cars have very tight suspensions and 4 X 4's are very loose in contrast. Can you imagine how a jeep would handle with a C3 steering system!
Bernie