Another started ruined
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Racer
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 273
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Another starter ruined
Another starter bites the dust! I always had issues with heat soak given the BB and Supercomp headers although this time the solenoid seems OK but the gear sounds all chewed up. What a God awful sound that is!!! Only a thousand miles or so on the flywheel so I hope/suspect the ring gear is OK. I have been through numerous starters and they just do not seem to last between the the heat and 10.75 compression. So please.... any reccomendations are very much appreciated for something that is high torque, perhaps has a smaller footprint and can tolerate the heat?
Thanks all
-Andre
Thanks all
-Andre
Last edited by AndreG; Feb 11, 2006 at 02:56 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,872
Likes: 12
From: Waterloo ontario Canada
I run a big block for years with 11 1/4 compression. I too had problems with heat soak so I went to a ford remote solenoid and shorted out the stock solenoid.
I went with a mini starter because I found the starter drives were too far back from the ring gear. No way to fix this with a stock starter.
Ideally the starter gear should move forward a small amount , ingage the ring gear and then start turnig. That is idea but ours start turning before they reach the ring gear cause the mate between the two to happen with the starter already rotating.
A stock starter also only goes part way through the ring gear, again not good because of limited tooth contact. Look at a ruined flywheel and you will see only the front part of the teeth are chewed up and the back is still like new.
I took a mini starter and moved the mounting holes so the starter was closer to the ring gear, made contact before turning and passed through the teeth for maximum tooth contact. Alot of work but no more starter problems.
I went with a mini starter because I found the starter drives were too far back from the ring gear. No way to fix this with a stock starter.
Ideally the starter gear should move forward a small amount , ingage the ring gear and then start turnig. That is idea but ours start turning before they reach the ring gear cause the mate between the two to happen with the starter already rotating.
A stock starter also only goes part way through the ring gear, again not good because of limited tooth contact. Look at a ruined flywheel and you will see only the front part of the teeth are chewed up and the back is still like new.
I took a mini starter and moved the mounting holes so the starter was closer to the ring gear, made contact before turning and passed through the teeth for maximum tooth contact. Alot of work but no more starter problems.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2004
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Looking for 2nd best solution
Thanks Norval,
I had thought of doing the ford solenoid addition when I was having issues before but figured I still had other things I could try first. In Seattle it just doesn't get very warm so I wrapped a heat shield around the starter when replaced the previous time which seems to have reduced the heat problem enough so that the next time it failed (this time) was due to the gear stripping instead given the compression. That being said when it heat soaked the last time it was a real PIA, had to shut it down at a drive through window so as I could hear the speaker, car wouldn't restart for 10 minutes backing everyone up as I had no place to get out of the line. I have no doubt that you propose the best solution possible given your expertise and experience. I unfortunately need a more simplistic remedy hopefully via a superior more durable designed starter with integrated solenoid I can simply bolt on to avoid having to invest the time I simply don't have to tinker with it now to really do it right. Hated to say that..... Sometimes I wish I could just take a month off and do nothing but work out details on the car but other priorities take precedance and I frequently find myself fixing many of the same things over and over.
Thanks
-Andre
I had thought of doing the ford solenoid addition when I was having issues before but figured I still had other things I could try first. In Seattle it just doesn't get very warm so I wrapped a heat shield around the starter when replaced the previous time which seems to have reduced the heat problem enough so that the next time it failed (this time) was due to the gear stripping instead given the compression. That being said when it heat soaked the last time it was a real PIA, had to shut it down at a drive through window so as I could hear the speaker, car wouldn't restart for 10 minutes backing everyone up as I had no place to get out of the line. I have no doubt that you propose the best solution possible given your expertise and experience. I unfortunately need a more simplistic remedy hopefully via a superior more durable designed starter with integrated solenoid I can simply bolt on to avoid having to invest the time I simply don't have to tinker with it now to really do it right. Hated to say that..... Sometimes I wish I could just take a month off and do nothing but work out details on the car but other priorities take precedance and I frequently find myself fixing many of the same things over and over.
Thanks
-Andre
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,891
Likes: 4
From: North Port Fl
Here's a link to a mini high torque starter, they also have a more heavy duty model for higher HP engines. I ordered one a couple of days ago for my 350 but haven't received it yet?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY...QQcmdZViewItem
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 88,393
Likes: 2
From: eville in
Originally Posted by ljthe2nd
Here's a link to a mini high torque starter, they also have a more heavy duty model for higher HP engines. I ordered one a couple of days ago for my 350 but haven't received it yet?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY...QQcmdZViewItem
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,441
Likes: 0
Andre, can you get one of those aluminum heat shields on. Summit has one that has two layers of aluminum with some fiberglass matting between for added heat resistance. They come made to fit the stock GM units. I had to modify mine to fit the aftermarket starter but I found some benefit from it. Like Norval said, the total solution is the addition of the remote solenoid.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,142
Likes: 54
From: Taylor Michigan
Starters, Just buy a GOOD one.
You dont need any of those high dollar aftermarket piece`s of junk whether it`s a BB or SB or change to another car manufacturers part to help it crank, ie, {A Ford Switch}. 
All thats necessary is. 1, a set of good battery cables. 2, a high output battery with a lot of cranking amps. And 3, a good quality starter, and not a lifetime discount store starter. A word of caution if the flywheel is bad, no starter will last very long without screwing up the bendix drive. And contrary to some opinions, there really is not any so called "heat soak". It`s only bench racers imaginations gone wild when they start changing parts by guessing and for no real reason. Just put some GOOD parts in the car and they will work with any HP, cubic inch or compression. Mine are running before you can get your hand off the key and those SOB`s make some HP.
All thats necessary is. 1, a set of good battery cables. 2, a high output battery with a lot of cranking amps. And 3, a good quality starter, and not a lifetime discount store starter. A word of caution if the flywheel is bad, no starter will last very long without screwing up the bendix drive. And contrary to some opinions, there really is not any so called "heat soak". It`s only bench racers imaginations gone wild when they start changing parts by guessing and for no real reason. Just put some GOOD parts in the car and they will work with any HP, cubic inch or compression. Mine are running before you can get your hand off the key and those SOB`s make some HP.
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Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 273
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Looks like the simplist way to go.
Thanks all,
$57 seems a reasonable enough price and I like that it is not a rebuilt/remanufactured unit. I will try and retrofit the heat shield I have to fit it as well. The ebay site mentions the need to switch bolts if changing from a delco style which of course I am. I presume they are simply different length bolts, only bucks so I will order them anyways. Has anyone used a heatshield that just worked/fit really well or was designed specifically for this unit?
When it blows up in a year or two Norval you can tell me "I told you so" and hopefully I will then have some time to try and actually do it correctly
Thanks again
-Andre
$57 seems a reasonable enough price and I like that it is not a rebuilt/remanufactured unit. I will try and retrofit the heat shield I have to fit it as well. The ebay site mentions the need to switch bolts if changing from a delco style which of course I am. I presume they are simply different length bolts, only bucks so I will order them anyways. Has anyone used a heatshield that just worked/fit really well or was designed specifically for this unit?
When it blows up in a year or two Norval you can tell me "I told you so" and hopefully I will then have some time to try and actually do it correctly
Thanks again
-Andre
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,142
Likes: 54
From: Taylor Michigan
Originally Posted by ljthe2nd
Here's a link to a mini high torque starter, they also have a more heavy duty model for higher HP engines. I ordered one a couple of days ago for my 350 but haven't received it yet?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY...QQcmdZViewItem
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Back to square one!
Originally Posted by Ironcross
A very good choice, it`s a late model chevy starter that will work retoactive to early Vettes with a 168 tooth flywheel and is all that the add says it is.
Anyways, being the eternal optimist that I am I figured since I was already greasy and filthy I would at least finish bolting it in. Although I have the 168 tooth flywheel (Centerforce steel billet) the starter simply will not bolt into place! The holes appear to be in the correct places with the correct offset and bolts however the starter simply will not go in far enough for the holes to line up correctly. Very frustrating experience and I'm not about to start grinding on it to make it fit less I screw it up or create a condition where it does not mesh/align cleanly with the flywheel.
Sooooo...... has anyone gotten this to work with an old 69 big block?
Thanks much
-Andre
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,441
Likes: 0
[QUOTE=AndreG
Sooooo...... has anyone gotten this to work with an old 69 big block?
Thanks much
-Andre[/QUOTE]
I remember buying a mini starter from the local speed shop and having to trim away some of the aluminum from the starter's mounting block to get it to fit. Also check that the solenoid is clearing the block. Some mini starters have the ability to change the "clocking" to facilitate fitment.
Sooooo...... has anyone gotten this to work with an old 69 big block?
Thanks much
-Andre[/QUOTE]
I remember buying a mini starter from the local speed shop and having to trim away some of the aluminum from the starter's mounting block to get it to fit. Also check that the solenoid is clearing the block. Some mini starters have the ability to change the "clocking" to facilitate fitment.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,142
Likes: 54
From: Taylor Michigan
You would be better off repairing your old starter. Most places that sell these starters are not familiar with the correct BB staggered bolt cast iron nose starter used with the 11 in. clutch. If what you recieved will not correctly bolt up to the engine, no amount of trimming will make it work.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,752
Likes: 5
From: Austin Texas
Originally Posted by Ironcross
You dont need any of those high dollar aftermarket piece`s of junk whether it`s a BB or SB or change to another car manufacturers part to help it crank, ie, {A Ford Switch}. All thats necessary is. 1, a set of good battery cables. 2, a high output battery with a lot of cranking amps. And 3, a good quality starter, and not a lifetime discount store starter. A word of caution if the flywheel is bad, no starter will last very long without screwing up the bendix drive. And contrary to some opinions, there really is not any so called "heat soak". It`s only bench racers imaginations gone wild when they start changing parts by guessing and for no real reason. Just put some GOOD parts in the car and they will work with any HP, cubic inch or compression. Mine are running before you can get your hand off the key and those SOB`s make some HP.
All thats necessary is. 1, a set of good battery cables. 2, a high output battery with a lot of cranking amps. And 3, a good quality starter, and not a lifetime discount store starter. A word of caution if the flywheel is bad, no starter will last very long without screwing up the bendix drive. And contrary to some opinions, there really is not any so called "heat soak". It`s only bench racers imaginations gone wild when they start changing parts by guessing and for no real reason. Just put some GOOD parts in the car and they will work with any HP, cubic inch or compression. Mine are running before you can get your hand off the key and those SOB`s make some HP. http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Got that right
Originally Posted by Ironcross
You would be better off repairing your old starter. Most places that sell these starters are not familiar with the correct BB staggered bolt cast iron nose starter used with the 11 in. clutch. If what you recieved will not correctly bolt up to the engine, no amount of trimming will make it work.
Thanks
-A
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,752
Likes: 5
From: Austin Texas
The gear-reduction starters that have 1 small stud on the solenoid will need to have a 10 amp diode added to activate the ignition coil correctly. Note: I think the diode symbol is reversed in the drawing..
Last edited by big_G; Feb 23, 2006 at 04:11 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,831
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From: Springfield MO
St. Jude Donor '07
A myth??? From that webpage:
So your Chevy is experiencing hot start problems. You've ruled out the starter as the culprit, or replaced it entirely, you've checked all the connections but you still experience those no start conditions. What to do next? Add a Ford Starter Solenoid to your Chevy of course! It worked for chevy, it can work for you. Chevrolet offered a remote solenoid for their motorhomes for the very same reason.
Why? Because when wire gets warmer, its resitance goes up. Which means, when things are toasty warm your starter is not getting enough juice to activate the (on starter) solenoid from the original "start" wire. The wire is essentially acting like a ballast resistor. As well, the starter heat soak creates its own set of unique problems.
So your Chevy is experiencing hot start problems. You've ruled out the starter as the culprit, or replaced it entirely, you've checked all the connections but you still experience those no start conditions. What to do next? Add a Ford Starter Solenoid to your Chevy of course! It worked for chevy, it can work for you. Chevrolet offered a remote solenoid for their motorhomes for the very same reason.
Why? Because when wire gets warmer, its resitance goes up. Which means, when things are toasty warm your starter is not getting enough juice to activate the (on starter) solenoid from the original "start" wire. The wire is essentially acting like a ballast resistor. As well, the starter heat soak creates its own set of unique problems.
