Flaming River Rack & Pinion report
12-28-2006, 12:57 PM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
Flaming River Rack & Pinion report
I'm installing a flaming river rack for a buddy and I don't think anyone here has done this so I figured I'd post a report and I hope someone from Flaming River is reading and taking notes so they can improve on some things.
I'll have to take some pics to clarify some things here but for now it'll have to do.
I haven't completed the install yet but i already have a couple of things that need attention.
First of all, it looks like a quality kit, the cradle is sturdy with thick steel mounting plates and the hardware that comes with it looks good, as does the rack. It's a nice and slender rack.
It's much easier to install this with the engine removed, you have to holesaw a hole in the drivers side engine mount (much in the same way I did it for my front steering end take off rack) and a template is supplied to give the correct position for the hole. However the template is USELESS! If you cut it out and line the motor mount bolt hole up it does not resemble the frame mount at all, there's a 1/2" of room under the template and some room on the left and the general shape is not the same. So now, where am I to saw this hole? Do I need to lay it flat on the flange bend of the mount and just vertically line up the hole w/ the bolt hole? If I raise it so it's perpendicular the bolt hole will line up but the hole to be cut is partially above the mount, so not enough meat. I assume the template has the hole in the wrong position. Still have to figure this one out.
Then the cradle, its a nice cradle but I would have expected it to come POWDERCOATED and not w/ a cheezy satin black transport paint (which has already come off on the ends from rubbing inside the box). Later on, it proved to be sort of a blessing that it's not powdercoated because of fitment issues (oh damn!)
The cradle has 2 thick plates on the side that bolt to the frame where the steering box and idler arm were. The dr. side has 4 chassis bolts and the other side 3. Now, the stock steering box has 3 bolts and the idler arm 2...so where do the additional ones come from? Well, they are for the aligment holes for the 2 U channels that the frame is made of, They are under the motor mounts and are NOT supported by a tube on the inside like the other holes are. Also, the holes do not have a square opening on the outside like the other ones, making the carriage bolt that's supposed to go there USELESS since you can't hold them to tighten them. Other bolts must be used w/ big washers and care must be used when tightening them as you can collapse the frame easily since it's not internally supported... damn again! Also, these holes in the frame are much larger than the bolts so they don't offer a lot of "holding" when it comes to positioning the rack, tightening it to the frame w/ a large washer on the outside will still work though.
Then there's the plates themselves, they are thick which is nice but they are completely flat and the frame is not. They need some massaging. I ended up bending the rear sections (the smaller ones of the "ears") in a vise so they are bent inwards a bit. Not a big problem and maybe better to leave as is so the installer can carefully bend it to fit. Then the plate cutout, they have a cutout in the middle where the rear wall of the motor mount slides in, they clamp "around" the mount like a big U. These cutouts are not deep enough on the pass side, it needs some work with a grinder, maybe the cutting pattern can be modified a bit. Also, the section that has the hole for the frame jig hole bolt under the pass. side motor mount is too large, the front endge needs to be trimmed to fit inside the motor moutn U channel so you can move the cradle forward far enough to insert the other 2 bolts.
The problem is the weld on the underside of the motor mount, there's a lot of difference there between individual frames. I had to grind the weld off the frame and also take about 1/4th of an inch or so off on the firewall side, basically making the cutout deeper and angled. Not a lot of work but if the cradle came powdercoated surely something that would ruin the finish. Then all it took was a little grinding on the drivers side motor mount, the flange width had to be taken down a bit right next to the frame. No biggie though.
So then it fits like a glove...but what do I see..? OMG! it's crooked... what the hell??
I quickly found out by measuring a bit that my eyes were not deceiving me. It's also not the frame, it's the cradle. It's all nice and level but from the bottom it's not how it should be. I then noticed how the crossmember was welded to the 2 big mounting plates. The plates have a U shape at the bottom, on one side the crossmember is perfectly centered in the bottom of the U, on the other end it's off by at least half an inch. Only thing left to do is cut it off carefully and weld back in... in the proper location
Good thing the flaming river badge is not a sticker, I carefully removed it and after rewelding, modifying and painting (or powdercoating...might do that) it I will glue it back on.
I didn't get to cut the crossmember or do any of the steering shaft install...will have to do that.
Oh and why didn't the kit come w/ new tie rod ends? It came w/ lock nuts..kinda cheap, would have expected some to be included. Luckily I had some new ones lying around but this sure was a small disappointment.
Another little comment, the carriage bolts are all course threaded and threaded all the way, the stockers are fine threaded and have a large shank. I feel such bolts should be included instead of the other ones, they are readily available as many sources sell them. Also the upper short idler arm bolt is kind of small in daimeter, I'm going to put a larger one in there that will match the size of the hole in the frame bracket and the mounting plate. Small bolt..large hole? nah!!!
Then there's the rack height, I noticed the rack is kind of wide for the low placement on the frame, I hope flaming river did some bumpsteer stesting as the tie rods are on the short side and they do not angle in conjunction with the lower arm, for a perfect geometry the rack would have to be mounted upwards quite a bit. There's no room there however. Being where it is right now the ideal rack width would be around 16,5-17" ... the width of one of those appleton or sweet racks..but those are front steer. Reducing the rack width will reduce the lock to lock travel and therefore the wheel lock angle.
Well..that's it
Let me say, it's not a bad kit..in fact it looks to be an awesome kit if some of these minor issues are resolved, it's a very sturdy mount...much better than the steeroids mount.
The cradle sort of looks like this but this is not a corvette kit in the pic
Last but not least, the instructions are pretty good, I scanned over them a bit but there are a lot of spelling and grammattical errors ( I saw too written several times where it shouldn't be with double o).
I'll have to take some pics to clarify some things here but for now it'll have to do.
I haven't completed the install yet but i already have a couple of things that need attention.
First of all, it looks like a quality kit, the cradle is sturdy with thick steel mounting plates and the hardware that comes with it looks good, as does the rack. It's a nice and slender rack.
It's much easier to install this with the engine removed, you have to holesaw a hole in the drivers side engine mount (much in the same way I did it for my front steering end take off rack) and a template is supplied to give the correct position for the hole. However the template is USELESS! If you cut it out and line the motor mount bolt hole up it does not resemble the frame mount at all, there's a 1/2" of room under the template and some room on the left and the general shape is not the same. So now, where am I to saw this hole? Do I need to lay it flat on the flange bend of the mount and just vertically line up the hole w/ the bolt hole? If I raise it so it's perpendicular the bolt hole will line up but the hole to be cut is partially above the mount, so not enough meat. I assume the template has the hole in the wrong position. Still have to figure this one out.
Then the cradle, its a nice cradle but I would have expected it to come POWDERCOATED and not w/ a cheezy satin black transport paint (which has already come off on the ends from rubbing inside the box). Later on, it proved to be sort of a blessing that it's not powdercoated because of fitment issues (oh damn!)
The cradle has 2 thick plates on the side that bolt to the frame where the steering box and idler arm were. The dr. side has 4 chassis bolts and the other side 3. Now, the stock steering box has 3 bolts and the idler arm 2...so where do the additional ones come from? Well, they are for the aligment holes for the 2 U channels that the frame is made of, They are under the motor mounts and are NOT supported by a tube on the inside like the other holes are. Also, the holes do not have a square opening on the outside like the other ones, making the carriage bolt that's supposed to go there USELESS since you can't hold them to tighten them. Other bolts must be used w/ big washers and care must be used when tightening them as you can collapse the frame easily since it's not internally supported... damn again! Also, these holes in the frame are much larger than the bolts so they don't offer a lot of "holding" when it comes to positioning the rack, tightening it to the frame w/ a large washer on the outside will still work though.
Then there's the plates themselves, they are thick which is nice but they are completely flat and the frame is not. They need some massaging. I ended up bending the rear sections (the smaller ones of the "ears") in a vise so they are bent inwards a bit. Not a big problem and maybe better to leave as is so the installer can carefully bend it to fit. Then the plate cutout, they have a cutout in the middle where the rear wall of the motor mount slides in, they clamp "around" the mount like a big U. These cutouts are not deep enough on the pass side, it needs some work with a grinder, maybe the cutting pattern can be modified a bit. Also, the section that has the hole for the frame jig hole bolt under the pass. side motor mount is too large, the front endge needs to be trimmed to fit inside the motor moutn U channel so you can move the cradle forward far enough to insert the other 2 bolts.
The problem is the weld on the underside of the motor mount, there's a lot of difference there between individual frames. I had to grind the weld off the frame and also take about 1/4th of an inch or so off on the firewall side, basically making the cutout deeper and angled. Not a lot of work but if the cradle came powdercoated surely something that would ruin the finish. Then all it took was a little grinding on the drivers side motor mount, the flange width had to be taken down a bit right next to the frame. No biggie though.
So then it fits like a glove...but what do I see..? OMG! it's crooked... what the hell??
I quickly found out by measuring a bit that my eyes were not deceiving me. It's also not the frame, it's the cradle. It's all nice and level but from the bottom it's not how it should be. I then noticed how the crossmember was welded to the 2 big mounting plates. The plates have a U shape at the bottom, on one side the crossmember is perfectly centered in the bottom of the U, on the other end it's off by at least half an inch. Only thing left to do is cut it off carefully and weld back in... in the proper location
Good thing the flaming river badge is not a sticker, I carefully removed it and after rewelding, modifying and painting (or powdercoating...might do that) it I will glue it back on.I didn't get to cut the crossmember or do any of the steering shaft install...will have to do that.
Oh and why didn't the kit come w/ new tie rod ends? It came w/ lock nuts..kinda cheap, would have expected some to be included. Luckily I had some new ones lying around but this sure was a small disappointment.
Another little comment, the carriage bolts are all course threaded and threaded all the way, the stockers are fine threaded and have a large shank. I feel such bolts should be included instead of the other ones, they are readily available as many sources sell them. Also the upper short idler arm bolt is kind of small in daimeter, I'm going to put a larger one in there that will match the size of the hole in the frame bracket and the mounting plate. Small bolt..large hole? nah!!!
Then there's the rack height, I noticed the rack is kind of wide for the low placement on the frame, I hope flaming river did some bumpsteer stesting as the tie rods are on the short side and they do not angle in conjunction with the lower arm, for a perfect geometry the rack would have to be mounted upwards quite a bit. There's no room there however. Being where it is right now the ideal rack width would be around 16,5-17" ... the width of one of those appleton or sweet racks..but those are front steer. Reducing the rack width will reduce the lock to lock travel and therefore the wheel lock angle.
Well..that's it
Let me say, it's not a bad kit..in fact it looks to be an awesome kit if some of these minor issues are resolved, it's a very sturdy mount...much better than the steeroids mount.
The cradle sort of looks like this but this is not a corvette kit in the pic
Last but not least, the instructions are pretty good, I scanned over them a bit but there are a lot of spelling and grammattical errors ( I saw too written several times where it shouldn't be with double o).
Last edited by Twin_Turbo; 12-28-2006 at 02:02 PM.
12-28-2006, 01:14 PM
#2
Team Owner
TT, that kit is too heavy, so stupidly over engineered as to make me wonder if they are also trying to brace the frames somehow, as well as mount the rack.....
I have had my rack in place since end of '01, and it's driven daily....
no sign of failure so far, and you may remember that MY mounts are maybe 10% of steeroids, and from what you say, that one is even MORE overdone....methinks some 'designers' out there are doing way overkill because they scared tschitless of lawyers and just ANYTHING going rong....
better off rolling your own....
I have had my rack in place since end of '01, and it's driven daily....
no sign of failure so far, and you may remember that MY mounts are maybe 10% of steeroids, and from what you say, that one is even MORE overdone....methinks some 'designers' out there are doing way overkill because they scared tschitless of lawyers and just ANYTHING going rong....
better off rolling your own....
12-28-2006, 01:21 PM
#3
Race Director
Thread Starter
It's not heavy, looks heavier than it is...and the added bracing, I think it's kind of nice. I like this somewhat over engineered one better than the flimsy brackets from steeroids, if I would have built a rear steering setup it would be closer to this than to steeroids...no kidding!
A steering system is useless if it's not mounted proeprly..this IS mounted properly, that rack will go nowhere.
Also, the complete setup is LIGHTER than stock and I wouldn't be surprised if it's lighter than steeroids also, being a non power rack, no center mounting plate and no power steering pump & lines.
It beefs up the frame in the weakest area, right where that big nasty hole is for access to the power steering ram outer mount stud plates.
A steering system is useless if it's not mounted proeprly..this IS mounted properly, that rack will go nowhere.
Also, the complete setup is LIGHTER than stock and I wouldn't be surprised if it's lighter than steeroids also, being a non power rack, no center mounting plate and no power steering pump & lines.
It beefs up the frame in the weakest area, right where that big nasty hole is for access to the power steering ram outer mount stud plates.
12-28-2006, 01:38 PM
#5
Team Owner
Yeh, I hear you on that bracing....MY brackets weigh less then 2 lbs total....snicker...I need hop on that fan shroud project and get it outta the way on my VBP tower support rod....gotta git off my lazy ***...
BTW, not to hijack your thread or anything, but I THINK I MAYbe have the injection finally running decent....will take some time to find out...weather needs change from cool/cold (for Florida) and dry to hot and humid to see for sure....long story...
the 200 4r tranny is fine so far....
BTW, not to hijack your thread or anything, but I THINK I MAYbe have the injection finally running decent....will take some time to find out...weather needs change from cool/cold (for Florida) and dry to hot and humid to see for sure....long story...
the 200 4r tranny is fine so far....
12-28-2006, 01:53 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
Great feedback, thanks for taking the time to write all that......
ok, now add some photos
This is a non-power rack ? Please test it extensively and let me know if this would work on a power steering conversion or if it's too hard to turn the steering wheel. Would be nice to get rid of all that leaking power steering stuff
ok, now add some photos
This is a non-power rack ? Please test it extensively and let me know if this would work on a power steering conversion or if it's too hard to turn the steering wheel. Would be nice to get rid of all that leaking power steering stuff
12-28-2006, 01:58 PM
#7
Race Director
Thread Starter
If the steering wheel is too hard to turn..turn it a little, mash the throttle and dump the clutch and make the corner that way (not for you grannies w/ an automatic LOL)
(not for you grannies w/ an automatic LOL)
12-28-2006, 02:17 PM
#8
Le Mans Master
12-28-2006, 03:19 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
12-28-2006, 10:28 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
Nice report.
Did you actually DRIVE the car when you were done? The feel is the most important thing in my book. Is it going to be over-assisted like steeroids? That's the big question.
Did you actually DRIVE the car when you were done? The feel is the most important thing in my book. Is it going to be over-assisted like steeroids? That's the big question.
12-29-2006, 12:20 AM
#15
Le Mans Master
Come on TT, finish the install and let us know how it feels.... likely this is going to help me dump another $1200 into this car
12-29-2006, 01:16 AM
#16
Race Director
Thread Starter
Uhm, driving will be a problem, there's no engine, trans, suspensuion and interior installed on the car, it'll be at least a couple months or so before it's done.
12-29-2006, 02:08 AM
#17
Drifting
Member Since: Jan 2002
Location: N.Y
Posts: 1,500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anything is better than steeroids. binding, over assisted, and self destructing.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...e/DSC01316.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...e/DSC01319.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...e/2b90ad56.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...e/DSC01316.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...e/DSC01319.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...e/2b90ad56.jpg
01-13-2007, 04:06 PM
#18
Race Director
Thread Starter
Here are some pics to illustrate the story above. I contacted FR tech support and their answer for the issue with the template was that the kit was designed for a small block car adn the frame for a big block is different, we all know that's untrue. I replied that to them, haven't received an answer yet but from the looks of it I'll have to figure out where to put the hole myself.
The template:
maybe you can see the install is crooked here
Here are the pics of the crossmember w/ comments:
The template:
maybe you can see the install is crooked here
Here are the pics of the crossmember w/ comments:
01-13-2007, 04:37 PM
#20
Race Director
Thread Starter
I don't know the numbers yet, install not complete but the rack width does not go together with the front suspension so there is a discrepancy and how much the resulting bumpsteer will be will have to be determined.
Last edited by Twin_Turbo; 01-13-2007 at 04:54 PM.