onaqwst needs help asap...seriously
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,186
Likes: 45
From: detroit area
onaqwst needs help asap...seriously
so my 77 broke down.... engine died and wouldnt even turn....no click or anything..... battery has juice.... fuses are good...... luckily i had 2 guys stop to help me... 1 guy had a vette and the other lived down the street where i broke down at..... they helped me out... i swapped the starter since it didnt engage and just was spinning...thought that was the problem.... nope...... gonna change the dist cap tomorrow.... any other ideas.... the guy that owns the house where my vette is at now said it could be the neutral safety switch/cable..... i tend to shift into neutral at stop lights...i have an auto trans........ i'm really bummed out right now and cant figure it out............and secrete fusable links anywhere... i cut the starter link out thinking it was that........
help
b
help
b
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,429
Likes: 44
From: Macon, GA
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,186
Likes: 45
From: detroit area
car was dead...like nothing....... i swapped the starter then we jumped the terminals and the motor turned but wont stay on..... so i'm thinking the dist cap is bad or the ignition switch in the column is bad..... or soemthing else stupid
b
b
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,192
Likes: 27
From: Boca Raton Florida
OK, if the starter spins there is nothing wrong with the battery or solenoid or lockout circuitry.
The starter motor ONLY runs when the solenoid picks up and that is controlled by the other stuff. If the atarter motor spins and the engine does not turn over there is a problem with the bendix inside the starer. its not engauging the flywheel/flexplate
So, the short version is your starter is toast
The starter motor ONLY runs when the solenoid picks up and that is controlled by the other stuff. If the atarter motor spins and the engine does not turn over there is a problem with the bendix inside the starer. its not engauging the flywheel/flexplate
So, the short version is your starter is toast
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,429
Likes: 44
From: Macon, GA
Do you have spark? If not, I'd check the ignition module under the cap first. If a module goes bad, it usually goes completely dead. The engine won't run because there's no trigger voltage to the ignition coil.
Last edited by sperkins; May 20, 2007 at 01:13 AM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,186
Likes: 45
From: detroit area
does the ignition modual come with the dist cap or do i have to buy that separate.... i'm just learning all the stuff under the hood regarding the electrical system....
the old starter was bad...is was just spinnin and not engaging...so i picked up a new one from murrys.... i'm gonna get a mini starter though since i heard that since i have headers, the regular starters heat up alot and they fail........
thanks
b
the old starter was bad...is was just spinnin and not engaging...so i picked up a new one from murrys.... i'm gonna get a mini starter though since i heard that since i have headers, the regular starters heat up alot and they fail........
thanks
b
Abby Normal
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,463
Likes: 92
From: Press "2" for English
o.k. i'm still confused. now that you've replaced the starter, does it engage the ring gear, i.e. does the engine turn over but not start when you turn the key?
unless a wire shorted, i can't see how a starter would cause a car to die. you have to look somewhere else. start with the obvious-gas and spark. don't be too proud to think your gas gauge is lying to you. make sure you actually have gas in the carb.
unless a wire shorted, i can't see how a starter would cause a car to die. you have to look somewhere else. start with the obvious-gas and spark. don't be too proud to think your gas gauge is lying to you. make sure you actually have gas in the carb.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,112
Likes: 28
From: Florida
Get your engine to crank over, by the key or by jumping the terminals.
See if you have 12 volts at the batt wire at the hei with the key on.
If not jumper from the batt post on the alternator or from the big batt post on the starter to the hei batt term. Make sure you have 12 volts at the hei
Take an extra good spark plug and one of the spark plug wires and have someone hold it on the manifold for good ground and crank the engine over with 12v to the hei.
If you don't see spark at the plug you have an hei problem.
If you do have spark, it should start.
You can temporarily jumper the hei like this to get it home.
If you don't get spark follow this:
Good luck 
See if you have 12 volts at the batt wire at the hei with the key on.
If not jumper from the batt post on the alternator or from the big batt post on the starter to the hei batt term. Make sure you have 12 volts at the hei
Take an extra good spark plug and one of the spark plug wires and have someone hold it on the manifold for good ground and crank the engine over with 12v to the hei.
If you don't see spark at the plug you have an hei problem.
If you do have spark, it should start.
You can temporarily jumper the hei like this to get it home.
If you don't get spark follow this:
HEI Test
1. With the ignition on, connect a test light to the coil positive (+) post or HEI BAT terminal.
LIGHT ON: Go to step 3.
LIGHT OFF: Go to step 2.
2. Check for continuity or voltage drop in the ignition switch and in the circuit from the switch to the coil positive (+) side or HEI BAT terminal, including any aftermarket ignition modules or ballast resistors. On conventional ignitions, also check for continuity in the bypass wire from the solenoid R terminal. Repair or replace as necessary.
STARTS: Stop—you’ve found the problem.
NO START: Go to step 3.
3. Remove a spark plug wire and insert an extension. Using insulated pliers, hold the spark plug wire ¼-inch away from the engine block while cranking the engine.
SPARK: The problem is not the ignition system. Check the fuel system, spark plugs, timing, and internal engine condition.
NO SPARK: Go to step 4.
4. Remove and inspect the distributor cap for cracks and carbon-tracking. Visually inspect the distributor mechanism for moisture, corrosion, or burns. Repair as needed.
STARTS: Stop—you’ve fixed it.
NO START: Go to step 5.
5. Check the coil.
CONVENTIONAL COIL: Go to step 6.
HEI (IN-CAP COIL): Go to step 9.
6. Set an ohmmeter to the low scale. Connect the leads across the primary terminals. Coils requiring ballast resistors should have about 1-2 ohms of resistance. Those not requiring a ballast resistor should have about 4-5 ohms of resistance.
OK: Go to step 7.
NOT OK: Replace coil.
7. Switch the ohmmeter to the high scale. Connect one lead to either coil primary terminal and the other lead to the secondary cable tower. A stock-style coil should read between 4K and 8K on the scale. Some aftermarket coils may have lower values; consult the appropriate specs.
BELOW 4K OR OVER 8K: Replace coil.
WITHIN SPEC: For points systems, go to step 8. For electronic systems other than HEI, consult the system manufacturer for further troubleshooting steps.
8. Using a voltmeter, connect one lead to ground and the other to the distributor side of the coil. Remove the high-tension wire from the coil and ground it. Bump the starter switch to open and close the points; the voltmeter reading should be 1/3 to ½ the battery voltage during cranking as the points open and close.
READING AT OR NEAR ZERO: Replace the points and condenser.
9. Set an ohmmeter to the low scale. Connect the leads across the HEI’s “BAT” and “TACH” terminals.
ABOVE 1 OHM: Replace coil. If vehicle still doesn’t start, go to step 11. 0-1 OHM: Go to step 10.
10. Switch the ohmmeter to the high scale. Connect one lead to the “BAT” terminal and the other lead to the coil contact in the inside-center of the cap. Switch the first lead to the “TACH” terminal and recheck.
EITHER TEST READS 6K to 30K: Coil is OK. Go to Step 11.
BOTH TESTS READ INFINITY: Replace the coil. If the engine still won’t start, go to step 11.
11. Remove the green and white leads from the HEI control module. Connect the ohmmeter from ground to either lead.
INFINITE:
Go to step 12. LESS THAN INFINITY: Replace the pickup coil. If the engine still won’t start, replace the module.
12. Connect the ohmmeter across the green and white module leads.
READS 500-1,500 OHMS: Repeat Steps 11 and 12 while moving the vacuum advance with a screwdriver. If reading is still OK, replace the module.
DOES NOT READ 500-1,500 OHMS: Replace pickup coil. If the engine still doesn’t start, replace the module.
1. With the ignition on, connect a test light to the coil positive (+) post or HEI BAT terminal.
LIGHT ON: Go to step 3.
LIGHT OFF: Go to step 2.
2. Check for continuity or voltage drop in the ignition switch and in the circuit from the switch to the coil positive (+) side or HEI BAT terminal, including any aftermarket ignition modules or ballast resistors. On conventional ignitions, also check for continuity in the bypass wire from the solenoid R terminal. Repair or replace as necessary.
STARTS: Stop—you’ve found the problem.
NO START: Go to step 3.
3. Remove a spark plug wire and insert an extension. Using insulated pliers, hold the spark plug wire ¼-inch away from the engine block while cranking the engine.
SPARK: The problem is not the ignition system. Check the fuel system, spark plugs, timing, and internal engine condition.
NO SPARK: Go to step 4.
4. Remove and inspect the distributor cap for cracks and carbon-tracking. Visually inspect the distributor mechanism for moisture, corrosion, or burns. Repair as needed.
STARTS: Stop—you’ve fixed it.
NO START: Go to step 5.
5. Check the coil.
CONVENTIONAL COIL: Go to step 6.
HEI (IN-CAP COIL): Go to step 9.
6. Set an ohmmeter to the low scale. Connect the leads across the primary terminals. Coils requiring ballast resistors should have about 1-2 ohms of resistance. Those not requiring a ballast resistor should have about 4-5 ohms of resistance.
OK: Go to step 7.
NOT OK: Replace coil.
7. Switch the ohmmeter to the high scale. Connect one lead to either coil primary terminal and the other lead to the secondary cable tower. A stock-style coil should read between 4K and 8K on the scale. Some aftermarket coils may have lower values; consult the appropriate specs.
BELOW 4K OR OVER 8K: Replace coil.
WITHIN SPEC: For points systems, go to step 8. For electronic systems other than HEI, consult the system manufacturer for further troubleshooting steps.
8. Using a voltmeter, connect one lead to ground and the other to the distributor side of the coil. Remove the high-tension wire from the coil and ground it. Bump the starter switch to open and close the points; the voltmeter reading should be 1/3 to ½ the battery voltage during cranking as the points open and close.
READING AT OR NEAR ZERO: Replace the points and condenser.
9. Set an ohmmeter to the low scale. Connect the leads across the HEI’s “BAT” and “TACH” terminals.
ABOVE 1 OHM: Replace coil. If vehicle still doesn’t start, go to step 11. 0-1 OHM: Go to step 10.
10. Switch the ohmmeter to the high scale. Connect one lead to the “BAT” terminal and the other lead to the coil contact in the inside-center of the cap. Switch the first lead to the “TACH” terminal and recheck.
EITHER TEST READS 6K to 30K: Coil is OK. Go to Step 11.
BOTH TESTS READ INFINITY: Replace the coil. If the engine still won’t start, go to step 11.
11. Remove the green and white leads from the HEI control module. Connect the ohmmeter from ground to either lead.
INFINITE:
Go to step 12. LESS THAN INFINITY: Replace the pickup coil. If the engine still won’t start, replace the module.
12. Connect the ohmmeter across the green and white module leads.
READS 500-1,500 OHMS: Repeat Steps 11 and 12 while moving the vacuum advance with a screwdriver. If reading is still OK, replace the module.
DOES NOT READ 500-1,500 OHMS: Replace pickup coil. If the engine still doesn’t start, replace the module.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,053
Likes: 4
St. Jude Donor '03,'11
if the starter doesn't click, try taking a screwdriver and shorting the big terminal on the solenoid to the small one that the ignition wire is connected to. That should make it turn. If not you have a battery or connection problem.
If you want it to start when you jump the terminals leave the key in the on/run position.
pretty simple. Lets see how many pages this goes and if they will have you strip your car down and do a frame-off to fix it.
If you want it to start when you jump the terminals leave the key in the on/run position.
pretty simple. Lets see how many pages this goes and if they will have you strip your car down and do a frame-off to fix it.
Last edited by turtlevette; May 20, 2007 at 11:17 AM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,186
Likes: 45
From: detroit area
the starter will turn the motor once the contacts are touched...but no start......... if i try to turn the key, i get nothing.... no buzz/humm/etc.... nothing.........
i think the cap is toast also..... since i'm not getting anything to the starter ........
i have 1/3 tank of gas and a mechanical fuel pump....
b
i think the cap is toast also..... since i'm not getting anything to the starter ........
i have 1/3 tank of gas and a mechanical fuel pump....
b
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 12,706
Likes: 329
From: Scottsdale Arizona
The distributor cap has nothing to do with the starter circuit. A bad cap might keep the car from running, but not from turning over. Your problem soounds lilke it's with the starter or the solenoid.
Pro
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 738
Likes: 9
From: Fallbrook CA
Sounds like you are jumping the solinoid contacts with a screw driver to engage the starter. Is your ignition switch on when you are doing this. If not, the motor can turn over but you have no juice to the ignition and it won't fire. Make sure the key is ON when you jump it. Your problem may be a bad ignition switch???
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,429
Likes: 44
From: Macon, GA
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,562
Likes: 2
From: Spring Texas
I think your buddy was on to something with the neutral safety switch. Recently had trouble with mine. Same symptoms, fully charged battery, 14 volts at the starter, turn the switch and nothing. Open up your console and check your neutral safety switch.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,795
Likes: 1
ok so it cranks when you jump the solinoid.
have you tried to put the key in the run position then
jump the solinoid to see if the car starts?
if it does then i would also go with the nuetral safety switch
being bad.
remember the key has to be in the run position so the coil is
energized in order for the car start when jumping the solinoid
if it does start and run that way then either the switch is bad
or it is out of alignment in which case it may start in
any other gear.
give that a shot and let us know what happens
but MAKE SURE IT IS IN PARK BEFORE TRYING THIS
SO THE CAR DOESNT RUN YOU OVER
have you tried to put the key in the run position then
jump the solinoid to see if the car starts?
if it does then i would also go with the nuetral safety switch
being bad.
remember the key has to be in the run position so the coil is
energized in order for the car start when jumping the solinoid
if it does start and run that way then either the switch is bad
or it is out of alignment in which case it may start in
any other gear.
give that a shot and let us know what happens
but MAKE SURE IT IS IN PARK BEFORE TRYING THIS
SO THE CAR DOESNT RUN YOU OVER
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,186
Likes: 45
From: detroit area
replaced the coil and cap...... checked the neutral safety switch in the console and no power to it... so i think the problem is in the ignition key switch........
the car was running when it died.... i was at a stop light and noticed my volts running a bit low from my stereo and small alternator...so i cut the radio and drove about 100 yards and the motor quit when i ws stopped at a light.......
i dont know how i could have cooked the ignition switch...maybe just went bad..........
and the key was on when i jumped the starter...motor would get the spark to stay running....
is there an easy way to pop the ignition key unit out or bypass it to get the car running?
b
the car was running when it died.... i was at a stop light and noticed my volts running a bit low from my stereo and small alternator...so i cut the radio and drove about 100 yards and the motor quit when i ws stopped at a light.......
i dont know how i could have cooked the ignition switch...maybe just went bad..........
and the key was on when i jumped the starter...motor would get the spark to stay running....
is there an easy way to pop the ignition key unit out or bypass it to get the car running?
b
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,053
Likes: 4
St. Jude Donor '03,'11
connect a hot or switched wire to the distributer, ie unplug the red wire and put a temp jumper.
the downside is that you will have to pull the wire off to stop it, if you don't have a switch inside.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,186
Likes: 45
From: detroit area
where is the switched located at.... i'm under the dash but i think the switch is actually on top of the column..... so i think i have to pull the whole dash out to get to it and not sure if i have to rop the column
thanks
b
thanks
b
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,053
Likes: 4
St. Jude Donor '03,'11
Jim Shea could tell you how to hot wire that thing. Its a pretty complex bundle of wires. Make sure everything is plugged in good when you're down under the dash. Maybe even un-plug then re-plug to get contact swipe.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,186
Likes: 45
From: detroit area
so we jumped a wire from the hott on the starter to the batt on the dist and turned the key and the motor cranked.... gotta check for spark... i think i cooked my battery and it doesnt have enough amps to get it going..... i do have a cam/heads/portd/milled .... might see if i can get a yellow top battery today
thanks for the help everyone....
b
thanks for the help everyone....
b