I borrowed a recently calibrated Snap-on torque wrench from a friend and rechecked the bolts. It was within 5 ft-lbs of my torque wrench. I then pressure checked the cooling system and I could see wetness appear around a few of the lower bolts. So I took the heads back off and the blue stuff from the Fel-Pro gaskets seemed to be even, so I'm 98% sure it was the thread sealer. I ran a tap in in the block holes and wire brushed the bolts again. I will be sure to clean all the threads with lacquer thinner. I need to pick up new gaskets tomorrow and try this again. Thanks for all the advice. Craig :flag

 

Tom, What brand of beam torque wrench do you use and how much did it cost?

 

I have to ask one more time - have you checked to make sure the heads aren't warped? Also, are the bolts the correct length. Won't be the first time that the bolts bottomed out before putting the pressure on the head.

Andy

 

Andy is right... there is still a possibility that the heads (one at least) is warped. You need a machinists straight edge to check this. They cost about $100 and are hard to locate. A good quality cast iron table saw has a fairly flat deck on it- it's worth a look-see if you have one.

A smith- I have a Craftsman that I bought over 25 years ago that has never been borrowed or dropped.
It's still right on the money... guaranteed to 1% for the life of the tool. It's still alive.
I don't know if Sears still sells beam type wrenches, and I don't know who makes them for Sears.

Craig... make sure the coolant is below the rear outer threads in the block. If in doubt, there is a plug on each side of the block that you can remove to let coolant out. What typically happens (I've seen this, and done this) is that the mechanic leaves coolant in the block, and when he climbs onto the car, his weight causes the front end to drop, and the coolant moves around, accidentally getting onto the block threads. Unaware that this has happened after the threads were cleaned, the threads are now re-contaminated. An alternative to loosening the plugs is to let the coolant siphon... stick the corner of a rag or a paper towel into the lowest bolt hole (right & left rear) or a coolant passage, and let the coolant siphon (wick) out so that it is well below the bolt hole threads. This is slow, but it works. Then, chase the threads and clean them using Q-Tips and lacquer thinner. I have a feeling this may be what happend in your case.

 

Here's an update on my engine reuilding experience. I did take the heads to a local machine shop to check for straightness, and they were within specs. I did make extra sure the threads on the bolts and block were clean and dry. I used Permatex #2 on the threads and torqued in sequence by the book. I fired it up and this time NO LEAKS. Thanks for all the help. Now all I have to do is put the rest of the car together. Craig :cheers: :flag

 

You should put the cap on the radiator...the coolant you saw between the block and the head was probably just spray from the coolant...the fan kicks water all over the place and frequently lands on the engine.

It is normal for the temperature to climb after shutting the engine off. If you are running a thermostat then my bet is that your temp gauge is wrong...at 1,500 to 2,000 rpm with no load the engine should not get up to 200º...temperature should stay at the rated thermostat rating.

Hmmm, if you mean you used some plumbers teflon tape then someone probably gave you that advice for free, and you got what you paid for. It's OK to use teflon tape for anything touching the water jacket, but not anywhere that it will touch gas or oil. Teflon thread sealer on headbolts will just cook the teflon tape, plus it will dissolve from the gas and oil, then leave a muck in there that will probably weld the head bolt in place so you might wind up snapping a head bolt or something...my advice is not to use any sealer in the head bolts. There is no reason whatsoever to use sealant on head bolts...it's not recommended by GM, nor any professional engine builder that I know of. I've rebuilt a 350 and a 454 and didn't use any sealant on the head bolts. Heck, if the bolt holes go all the way into the block there will just be the crankcase pressure, and if the head gasket is going to seal against the combustion chamber pressure then it's going to be fine with the crankcase pressure, in short you don't need to seal the head bolts. FelPro makes some of the best gaskets around...that was a good choice there.

If you don't have coolant in the oil then don't worry about it...it was probably just spray from having the cap off the radiator.


I would suggest pulling out the head bolts and cleaning the teflon tape off of them...that stuff will probably just melt and drip down into the oil pan and coat your bearings...THAT would be BAD. If you really want to seal against possible leaks and the head gasket doesn't already have a bead of silicon around the bolt holes then add it yourself...if the bolt holes go into the water jacket then a thin bead of red high-temp silicon would work good, but if the bolt holes go into the crankcase then you need to use Permatex Part B non-hardening like TOM454 suggests, BUT NOT ON THE THREADS! In my opinion nothing should be on the threads...man I've pulled apart engines where the previous mechanic has been putting gunk on the threads and they are ugly as well as the stuff gets into the crankcase or water jacket which is probably why it broke down in the first place. I was a fleet mechanic for several years...when most people have problems with a mechanic, they usually just go to another mechanic next time. I kept a dozen of commercial vehicles on the road doing 50,000 miles a year for three years and spent most of my time playing guitar and attending college cause when I fixed them the first time they stayed fixed. There are a lot of reasons to keep the threads clean...one is so you can get accurate torque readings, and the other is so you can easily pull the bolts out if you need to.

I also used to sell tools and it depends on where you get a torque wrench. I used to sell a beam type torque wrench that was good for maybe 10 tweaks at 100ft-lbs before the needle skewed off center out of calibration. However, the cheap $20 for 3/8" and $30 for 1/2" clicker type from China are dead on, as is my dial gauge vernial micrometer from the same company. If you want the best quality tools then get craftsman that have the lifetime guarantee...you can get a new one if you old one no longer "feels" right...don't know if they have that guarantee for the torque wrenches though.

Just sharing my experience...peace.



[Modified by Rockn-Roll, 9:31 PM 11/19/2001]

 

On a smallblock Chevy, the head bolts go into the water jacket. There is a very high probability that they will seep if no sealer is used. In fact, there was a very recent thread on this forum where a member was having this exact problem and he solved it by using Permatex #2 on the cylinder head bolts... hint hint.

Here is a quote from a contemporary service manual that I have in front of me as I type:

"Coat the threads of the bolts with oil resistant pipe sealant with Teflon..."

This is not Teflon tape. It is a specially formulated sealant with Teflon added.
I agree with Rockn-roll on the Teflon tape issue, but apparently they have formulated a relatively new sealer that has Teflon added which is suitable for use in automotive applications. I have seen it recently recommended by several auto manufacturers in their service manuals (as well as other forum members), and I believe ARP even recommends it now for use with their products.

The sealer does/will affect the torque readings because the specs are given for lightly oiled threads. I guess that is where the Teflon comes in... it makes up for the drag caused by the sealer.

This sealer is recommended for cylinder head bolts where they enter the water jacket, water pump housings, flywheel bolts where they enter the crankcase, etc etc.
I have never used it, but I think I will give it a shot.... it may even be better than the Permatex #2.

I have been building engines for 36 years (I finally took time to do the math), 26 of those years professionally. I had a 7 bay shop and I rebuilt 100's of engines. I used sealant on any/all bolts that protrude into the water jacket. I have never had a problem with my engine work. My customer satisfaction was 100%. My engines never came back due to leakage or torque related problems. In fact, I have had people give me gifts because they thought my fee was too low for the quality of work I produced.

So... I recommend the use of a carefully selected sealer for cylinder head bolts that enter into the water jacket... just like ARP, Ford, and Chevy does. It has been an excellent strategy for me..... it worked for the past 36 years. I just finished another 305 Chevy and it is humming away with no complaints. I have a 5.0 Ford on the stand that I am about to final assemble... using Permatex #2 on the head bolts.

Rockn-roll is absolutely correct... this makes a nasty, gummy mess when you need to disassemble the engine.

To avoid getting the sealer in the crankcase, or in the water passages, I coat the bolt threads (as recommended by the manufacturers), not the block threads. This way, as the bolt is tightened, any excess sealer will be forced up & out of the threads, not into the block where it can cause problems as Rockn- roll said. This method is simple, it works.. and it is recommended by the big boys.

Because I have been building engines for such a long time, I have had the opportunity to disassemble engines (mostly my own) that I had built. There was no Permatex #2 sealer in the water jackets, and none in the crankcase.

As a side issue, I also lightly coat the non-threaded portion of bolts that may be exposed to coolant. This is more prevailant in Fords than any other design. Why? Because when disassembling high mileage engines, I have found the threads seeped a small bit of water, and the bolts shank has rusted 20 to 30% of the way through. Coating the entire surface of the bolt shank avoids this problem. In these cases, the sealant that ended up under the bolt head was all that prevented the water from leaking to the outside of the engine.

I am basing this opinion on experience as a professional engine builder, after building several hundred engines with -0- callbacks, and recommendations taken directly from manufacturers literature and service manuals.

RE: Torque wrenches... my 30 year old Craftsman beam type is dead on... after 100's of engines. My friends brand new "clicker" type is dead... after 1 engine. Pay yer money, take yer chances. This is not my area of expertise, but I have been told (by other professional engine builders) that you have to spend several hundred dollars to get an accurate, reliable torque wrench. My 30 year old Craftsman beam type may be an exception. I think the trick is not to drop it or let anyone borrow it, and never over-stress it. Or... maybe it's just dumb luck on my part.

Should I put my "flame resistant" suit on now? Is this a good time?


[Modified by Tom454, 11:05 AM 11/20/2001]