How to Determine which 69 model design
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: TEXAS - you mean there are other states?
How to Determine which 69 model design
Are there a group of design variations that signify an early dsign 69 Vette? Is the design change distinct or did the design changes gradually get implemented... maybe our purist can advise?
The reason why I ask - I am re-doing vacuum hoses this weekend - how do I kow which design is actually correct for my car?
The reason why I ask - I am re-doing vacuum hoses this weekend - how do I kow which design is actually correct for my car?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,281
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From: NC USA
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (kaiserbud)
I'm at work but I'll give this one a try. In the 69 AIM find the drawing of the vacuum hose layout. On that drawing in the lower right hand revisions box it should say what changes were made to the drawing, part numbers deleted/added, etc and the date the changes were made. This will give you an idea but still won't pinpoint exactly when the parts were changed over in production since they had to use up old inventory. Without any other specifics on your vacuum question, not sure what else I can help you with but I'm sure someone else will comment.
Good luck! :cheers:
Good luck! :cheers:
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 38,923
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From: Southbound
Cruise-In II Veteran
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (kaiserbud)
I agree with Mark. Take your Time/Build date and consecutive unit number and determine when your car was built. With that date in mind, check the revision dates in the AIM. You can also check the NCRS judging manuals for running change dates.
:)
:)
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,608
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From: TEXAS - you mean there are other states?
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (Easy Mike)
Thanks for the input...
Don't mean to talk out of both sides of my mouth, but here are my thoughts.
1. I would prefer the better (efficient/reliable) vacuum system of the 2
2. Unless one is particularly harder to find and worthwhile to keep it the same way.
3. Originality is not my ultimate goal....
Don't mean to talk out of both sides of my mouth, but here are my thoughts.
1. I would prefer the better (efficient/reliable) vacuum system of the 2
2. Unless one is particularly harder to find and worthwhile to keep it the same way.
3. Originality is not my ultimate goal....
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,606
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From: PA
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design
Mark and Mike both offered good advice, but I think that we can simplify this a bit. I gather that since you mentioned vacuum hoses in particular, you're looking at the purchase of a vacuum hose kit - one of which is labeled "early" by the vendor, the other labeled "late."
From memory, I can tell you that early 1969 Corvettes had the wiper relay mounted at the rear of the right (passenger) side inner fender. Later in the model year, this relay was relocated to bracket riveted to the firewall protrusion for the brake master cylinder. The relay was moved BACK to the right inner fender in late 1970 or 1971 if I recall correctly. Each of these locations would require vacuum hoses of different lengths - identify where the relay is for your car and that should indicate which version your car has.
I am not aware of any advantage to either design.
Contrary to popular opinion, originality isn't necessarily a bad thing. Keeping the vacuum system original will allow you to identify the correct parts (AIM), troubleshoot (Chassis Service Manual), and properly disassemble/assemble the system (Chassis Service Manual). In this case, I think that staying close to the original design will save you a lot of headaches.
Good luck with your project!
From memory, I can tell you that early 1969 Corvettes had the wiper relay mounted at the rear of the right (passenger) side inner fender. Later in the model year, this relay was relocated to bracket riveted to the firewall protrusion for the brake master cylinder. The relay was moved BACK to the right inner fender in late 1970 or 1971 if I recall correctly. Each of these locations would require vacuum hoses of different lengths - identify where the relay is for your car and that should indicate which version your car has.
I am not aware of any advantage to either design.
Contrary to popular opinion, originality isn't necessarily a bad thing. Keeping the vacuum system original will allow you to identify the correct parts (AIM), troubleshoot (Chassis Service Manual), and properly disassemble/assemble the system (Chassis Service Manual). In this case, I think that staying close to the original design will save you a lot of headaches.
Good luck with your project!
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 13
From: Holly MI
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (Rowdy Rat)
Great thread. I started replacing all my hoses last night. I bought the Dr Rebuild kit (has the best diagram I have seen yet) for my 69. However, the diagram says there are two valves at the front end, one for each headlight. I only have one, mounted between the headlights. My AIM is at home, can anyone tell me what is correct for a 69?
Ken
Ken
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: PA
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design
Great thread. I started replacing all my hoses last night. I bought the Dr Rebuild kit (has the best diagram I have seen yet) for my 69. However, the diagram says there are two valves at the front end, one for each headlight. I only have one, mounted between the headlights. My AIM is at home, can anyone tell me what is correct for a 69?
You touched on a point that I failed to mention. The single relay for the headlights might be correct for early 1969 Corvettes. Seperate headlight relays were definitely used later in 1969 production; Mike's suggestion to use the NCRS Judging Manual for 1968-69 would help in this case as they might list a serial number break for this change.
Just out of curiosity Ken, when was you '69 built?
Regards,
[Modified by Rowdy Rat, 12:21 PM 11/2/2001]
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,608
Likes: 3
From: TEXAS - you mean there are other states?
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (bb69)
My car has just one relay actuator under the hood surround between the headlights. I noted that a recent posting on the forum showed a diagram that had 2 relay actuators between the headlights. My assumption was that thayt diagram was for later models - maybe 78??? The assembly manual for 1969 shows just one relay actuator (sheet 12/A14).
As for the rev dates in the Manual, (sheet 12/A18) states Rev 1 as Redrawn and Redesigned dated 11-6-68. It shows the W/S Wiper Door Vacuum Relay located near the brake master cylinder.
In summary, the difference is only the location of the one wiper door vacuum relay actuator (either near brake master cylinder or on right fender).
Planning on using a hose klit, I ordered both Early and Late model hose kits. I will review the differences and move on. I would assume that other than the hoses for the relocation of the one relay, all shoud be identical.
[Modified by kaiserbud, 12:34 PM 11/2/2001]
As for the rev dates in the Manual, (sheet 12/A18) states Rev 1 as Redrawn and Redesigned dated 11-6-68. It shows the W/S Wiper Door Vacuum Relay located near the brake master cylinder.
In summary, the difference is only the location of the one wiper door vacuum relay actuator (either near brake master cylinder or on right fender).
Planning on using a hose klit, I ordered both Early and Late model hose kits. I will review the differences and move on. I would assume that other than the hoses for the relocation of the one relay, all shoud be identical.
[Modified by kaiserbud, 12:34 PM 11/2/2001]
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,281
Likes: 6
From: NC USA
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (kaiserbud)
Just FYI, my trim tag says M20 indicating late September 69 and I have a single relay valve with vacuum Ts for the lights and the wiper door relay valve mounted near the brake booster. I've never had any problems having a single one for the headlights plus, you may not have a place to mount the second one. The 'two for the headlights' change must have been implemented very late in the year. :seeya
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,651
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From: Holly MI
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (Rowdy Rat)
Rowdy Rat,
I will confirm my date when I get home; I don't want to be off a little when it seems that makes a difference. The other thing I noticed last night was that the bag my hoses came in said "70". I just called Vette Products and he looked at the early 69 kit. It only shows one valve between the headlights. However, he didn't have a late 69 kit to compare to. The kits are Dr Rebuild, so I'm sure if someone contacts them, they can tell the differences.
Ken
I will confirm my date when I get home; I don't want to be off a little when it seems that makes a difference. The other thing I noticed last night was that the bag my hoses came in said "70". I just called Vette Products and he looked at the early 69 kit. It only shows one valve between the headlights. However, he didn't have a late 69 kit to compare to. The kits are Dr Rebuild, so I'm sure if someone contacts them, they can tell the differences.
Ken
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,606
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From: PA
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design
Mark, Ken & kaiserbud,
For whatever reason, I had always thought that this was an early 1969 (as in 1968 calendar year) change and would have bet money that my own '69 used two headlight relays if someone had asked me. The flow of this conversation pointed to a much later change date so I went out and checked my July 11, 1969 car and what do you know... one relay. Mark's car is later yet (September 20, 1969) and still has only one relay.
I took a look in the NCRS Judging guide, but I saw no mention made of the headlight relay(s).
I can tell you that my very early '70 (January 9, 1970) used the two relay setup so somwhere between Mark's M20 '69 and my A09 '70, a change was made. It will be interesting to see if the change took place during 1969 production or if it went into effect with the 1970 model. Anybody with an October-December 1969 car that can provide additional data?
Great thread... Learned something new on this one!
Regards,
For whatever reason, I had always thought that this was an early 1969 (as in 1968 calendar year) change and would have bet money that my own '69 used two headlight relays if someone had asked me. The flow of this conversation pointed to a much later change date so I went out and checked my July 11, 1969 car and what do you know... one relay. Mark's car is later yet (September 20, 1969) and still has only one relay.
I took a look in the NCRS Judging guide, but I saw no mention made of the headlight relay(s).
I can tell you that my very early '70 (January 9, 1970) used the two relay setup so somwhere between Mark's M20 '69 and my A09 '70, a change was made. It will be interesting to see if the change took place during 1969 production or if it went into effect with the 1970 model. Anybody with an October-December 1969 car that can provide additional data?
Great thread... Learned something new on this one!
Regards,
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 5,635
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From: Orlando Floriduh
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (kaiserbud)
My '69 is an October '69 build. The changes were not all or nothing but rather phased in. In other words one or two changes at a time. I have some things that are considered "early" and others that are considered "late". Cars on the cusp are hit and miss so each part/piece needs to be classified as to whether it is late or early rather than the whole car. A few items are: vacuum wiper canister, seat belts,etc. usually these item are listed in catalogues for 69E or 69L.
[Modified by silvervetteman, 6:46 PM 11/2/2001]
[Modified by silvervetteman, 6:46 PM 11/2/2001]
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,985
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From: SoCal.
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (kaiserbud)
The break point between early and late is generally considered the UAW strike in May of 1969: SN 21600 or so. However, many of the changes made were running changes implemented much earlier or much later than the April-May 8 week “work action.”
If your relay is on the fender order “early.” If it is near the brake master cylinder, order “late.”
George
If your relay is on the fender order “early.” If it is near the brake master cylinder, order “late.”
George
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,608
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From: TEXAS - you mean there are other states?
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (999)
My Seial number is over 26400 - so it must have been a late the wiper canister is large, and the relay is mounted on the left side.
I ordered both early and late vacuum hose sets from Mid America - I used the Late Model Kit, as the Early denoted the one relay being on the fender. BUT - upon installing the Late model, it still noted that one hose that was long (yellow stripe) would have to be cut if the relay was near the brake master cylinder.
I ordered both early and late vacuum hose sets from Mid America - I used the Late Model Kit, as the Early denoted the one relay being on the fender. BUT - upon installing the Late model, it still noted that one hose that was long (yellow stripe) would have to be cut if the relay was near the brake master cylinder.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,985
Likes: 78
From: SoCal.
Re: How to Determine which 69 model design (kaiserbud)
Sounds like you are set then. Fire it up tomorrow and go for a ride. I 'm going to Corvette Mike to check out the cars for an hour then coming back home to work on the carpet in the '69.
George :seeya
George :seeya
