Roller Rockers or Shaft
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 259
Likes: 45
From: Columbus Mn
Roller Rockers or Shaft
Howdy
So I've got a Motown Block 400 Mains/4.125 Bore Billet Splayed Caps, Oliver Rods, JE Servere Duty Blower Pistons, Ohio 4340 Crank, Comp Comp Solid Roller 300/308 575/575, Endura X Lifters, Dart 230cc 72cc, 6-71 Blower, ATI Balancer, MSD Ignition...etc.
I bought a set of adjustable pushrods, and ordered up a set of Comps Hi Tech Stainless 1.65 ratio rockers. The rockers won't work. They hit the valve spring. It's not a pushrod length issue. I have to almost remove the rocker before I get any clearance. I get that the longer valves move the valve tip closer to the rocker, and a bigger spring loses more clearance etc. I just figured that since these were the top of the line roller rockers from Comp Cams that they were designed with aftermarket springs, and valve lengths in mind. My question is does anyone know if there is a high quality roller rocker that fits without grinding. If not, I'll return my high techs, and order a shaft system from comp cams.
Thanks
So I've got a Motown Block 400 Mains/4.125 Bore Billet Splayed Caps, Oliver Rods, JE Servere Duty Blower Pistons, Ohio 4340 Crank, Comp Comp Solid Roller 300/308 575/575, Endura X Lifters, Dart 230cc 72cc, 6-71 Blower, ATI Balancer, MSD Ignition...etc.
I bought a set of adjustable pushrods, and ordered up a set of Comps Hi Tech Stainless 1.65 ratio rockers. The rockers won't work. They hit the valve spring. It's not a pushrod length issue. I have to almost remove the rocker before I get any clearance. I get that the longer valves move the valve tip closer to the rocker, and a bigger spring loses more clearance etc. I just figured that since these were the top of the line roller rockers from Comp Cams that they were designed with aftermarket springs, and valve lengths in mind. My question is does anyone know if there is a high quality roller rocker that fits without grinding. If not, I'll return my high techs, and order a shaft system from comp cams.
Thanks
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Right now I use 1.56 diameter 2.050 inch installed height springs with .685/.714 lift on Dart 227 CC heads. I used to run 1.65 I & 1.6 E I now went to 1.7 steel RR's
I had to get the taller ARP screw in studs and .200 longer push rods. My heads already came with .100 longer valves. It works for me. I would never grind on a RR. I just had to cut costs somewhere, so I didn't go with T&D shaft rockers. I've always just used the crane gold stud girdle. I also have the 434 standard deck Motown with 350 mains.
Oh. I use a .930 small base circle billet steel cam. The standard Comp Cam roller cams are made out of pot metal and my last one ate the full pump rod lobe away. Billet steel never seems to have a problem at least not out of the 4 or so that i bought in the last 5 years.
I had to get the taller ARP screw in studs and .200 longer push rods. My heads already came with .100 longer valves. It works for me. I would never grind on a RR. I just had to cut costs somewhere, so I didn't go with T&D shaft rockers. I've always just used the crane gold stud girdle. I also have the 434 standard deck Motown with 350 mains.
Oh. I use a .930 small base circle billet steel cam. The standard Comp Cam roller cams are made out of pot metal and my last one ate the full pump rod lobe away. Billet steel never seems to have a problem at least not out of the 4 or so that i bought in the last 5 years.
Last edited by gkull; Aug 23, 2007 at 11:34 AM.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,926
Likes: 739
From: Youngstown Ohio
I've also used the Comp 1.65 Hi Tech Stainless rockers with no clearance issues .....the heads were AFR 195's, competition ported w/2.05 intakes (+ .100 length) and 1.54 OD springs. Installed hgt. was around 1.85 I believe. Your situation seems to be unique(?).....check Scorpion brand rockers; they claim more clearance room for larger springs.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 259
Likes: 45
From: Columbus Mn
Thanks for the response. I did notice that I could buy longer studs. I wondered if that would make it work. My first instincts told me the geometry would be all messed up. I figured I'd for sure need a longer pushrod. Hmm... I'll have to take a look at my set-up and see if that's a viable solution. Cool.
I'll look up the stud lengths and mock it up to see if it works with my heads and springs.
The shaft system seems aweful trick, but costly.
Anyone else do something different. I was surprised with all the motors running the 227 or 230 Pro 1's that the rockers weren't discussed.
Thanks a bunch.
I'll look up the stud lengths and mock it up to see if it works with my heads and springs.
The shaft system seems aweful trick, but costly.
Anyone else do something different. I was surprised with all the motors running the 227 or 230 Pro 1's that the rockers weren't discussed.
Thanks a bunch.
Intermediate
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: Bakersfield California
Rockers
Before buying $$$$$$ shafts, look into the new beehive springs-that should fix the clearance issues with the rockers you have plus the hives don't seem to have resonance issues like the standard spring. There may or may not be a hive spring for your application but it would be worth a check.
What kind of redline are you looking at running? What is the application?
What kind of redline are you looking at running? What is the application?
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Back a couple of years ago I had a friend that was setting up some AFR210 heads with bigger SR springs. The first thing i saw with his valve covers off is that some of the black retainers had shiny dings in them. He had a shop build this motor for him.
the 1.6 CC steel rockers were touching about 1/2 of the retainers. I ask him what was going through his head running them like that?
So we drove over to Summit racing and bought the longer 2 inch or so 7/16th studs. I can't remember, but it seems like because of his 1.025 base circle cam that we ended up with .150+ pushrods and plenty of clearance.
the 1.6 CC steel rockers were touching about 1/2 of the retainers. I ask him what was going through his head running them like that?
So we drove over to Summit racing and bought the longer 2 inch or so 7/16th studs. I can't remember, but it seems like because of his 1.025 base circle cam that we ended up with .150+ pushrods and plenty of clearance.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,676
Likes: 201
From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
I am using the Hi Tech RR and with all the other stuff needed, Crane gold stud girdle, guide plates ARP studs etc. there is not that much difference in price between that and a shaft system, my next motor is going to have shaft rockers 
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 259
Likes: 45
From: Columbus Mn
Great feedback thanks everyone.
I'd say that it looks like longer studs and longer pushrods should solve my problem.
I've got some tearing down to do from the first combination. (AFR 190's, Comp Hyd Nitrous 284/305 507/525, Crane 1.6 rollers) I only made 585hp and 633trq. The cam stopped pullling at 5700rpms. The dyno operator said it was typical of hydraulic cams. I use to twist my 350 with a 292 magnum to 6500 daily.
Anyway Bigger Heads, Bigger Valves, Solid Roller etc.. I want a clean 700 HP and mid 600's for trq. We'll see. 6800RPM redline...
Thanks again.
I'd say that it looks like longer studs and longer pushrods should solve my problem.
I've got some tearing down to do from the first combination. (AFR 190's, Comp Hyd Nitrous 284/305 507/525, Crane 1.6 rollers) I only made 585hp and 633trq. The cam stopped pullling at 5700rpms. The dyno operator said it was typical of hydraulic cams. I use to twist my 350 with a 292 magnum to 6500 daily.
Anyway Bigger Heads, Bigger Valves, Solid Roller etc.. I want a clean 700 HP and mid 600's for trq. We'll see. 6800RPM redline...
Thanks again.
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Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 259
Likes: 45
From: Columbus Mn
Hmm... I took a look and simulated a longer stud by screwing it out of the head. Very weird there is no way that it will work. As I raise the rocker higher it moves the roller tip nearly all of the way off of the valve stem (towards the spring).
I called comp cams, and unfortunately it will take 4 weeks to get a shaft set up with 1.65's. You can pick any ratio you want from 1.3-2.0.
I'm a little bummed. I hoped to drive it this fall before the snow flew in MN. I still have to detail the engine bay, install the Hydraboost, Hot Rod Air, etc..I probably wouldn't have been able to drive it this fall anyway. I'm working full time, and taking night courses.
In the spring I'll order the Keisler, and next fall the Toms differential etc. will go in. Oh well it's just a hobby to keep me out of trouble??
I called comp cams, and unfortunately it will take 4 weeks to get a shaft set up with 1.65's. You can pick any ratio you want from 1.3-2.0.
I'm a little bummed. I hoped to drive it this fall before the snow flew in MN. I still have to detail the engine bay, install the Hydraboost, Hot Rod Air, etc..I probably wouldn't have been able to drive it this fall anyway. I'm working full time, and taking night courses.
In the spring I'll order the Keisler, and next fall the Toms differential etc. will go in. Oh well it's just a hobby to keep me out of trouble??
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
I have a local company called T&D for shaft rockers. Crane cams has some new high tech setup.
http://www.tdmach.com/
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...lvl=4&prt=2146
For crane you would want the 11809-1, but I would call about some higher ratio. I use 1.7's to get the max flow out of my heads for the longest time. It is exceptable to me to have to replace $550 list price springs on an annual basis. The last set I got for $400
http://www.tdmach.com/
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...lvl=4&prt=2146
For crane you would want the 11809-1, but I would call about some higher ratio. I use 1.7's to get the max flow out of my heads for the longest time. It is exceptable to me to have to replace $550 list price springs on an annual basis. The last set I got for $400
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 95
Howdy
So I've got a Motown Block 400 Mains/4.125 Bore Billet Splayed Caps, Oliver Rods, JE Servere Duty Blower Pistons, Ohio 4340 Crank, Comp Comp Solid Roller 300/308 575/575, Endura X Lifters, Dart 230cc 72cc, 6-71 Blower, ATI Balancer, MSD Ignition...etc.
I bought a set of adjustable pushrods, and ordered up a set of Comps Hi Tech Stainless 1.65 ratio rockers. The rockers won't work. They hit the valve spring. It's not a pushrod length issue. I have to almost remove the rocker before I get any clearance. I get that the longer valves move the valve tip closer to the rocker, and a bigger spring loses more clearance etc. I just figured that since these were the top of the line roller rockers from Comp Cams that they were designed with aftermarket springs, and valve lengths in mind. My question is does anyone know if there is a high quality roller rocker that fits without grinding. If not, I'll return my high techs, and order a shaft system from comp cams.
Thanks
So I've got a Motown Block 400 Mains/4.125 Bore Billet Splayed Caps, Oliver Rods, JE Servere Duty Blower Pistons, Ohio 4340 Crank, Comp Comp Solid Roller 300/308 575/575, Endura X Lifters, Dart 230cc 72cc, 6-71 Blower, ATI Balancer, MSD Ignition...etc.
I bought a set of adjustable pushrods, and ordered up a set of Comps Hi Tech Stainless 1.65 ratio rockers. The rockers won't work. They hit the valve spring. It's not a pushrod length issue. I have to almost remove the rocker before I get any clearance. I get that the longer valves move the valve tip closer to the rocker, and a bigger spring loses more clearance etc. I just figured that since these were the top of the line roller rockers from Comp Cams that they were designed with aftermarket springs, and valve lengths in mind. My question is does anyone know if there is a high quality roller rocker that fits without grinding. If not, I'll return my high techs, and order a shaft system from comp cams.
Thanks
torward the pushrod), the distance from the rocker fulcrum
center to the roller tip for the valve is lengthened.
the backset on the fulcrum is .090
7/16 stud, 1.65 ratio Part # 73672-8, they also have the same
rocker in 1.5, 1.6, 1.65, 1.7, 1.75, 1.8, 1.85, 1.9 ratios.
The Enduro Long Arm/Backset rocker clears 1.650 dia. valve springs.
Last edited by Little Mouse; Aug 25, 2007 at 04:14 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Before buying $$$$$$ shafts, look into the new beehive springs-that should fix the clearance issues with the rockers you have plus the hives don't seem to have resonance issues like the standard spring. There may or may not be a hive spring for your application but it would be worth a check.
What kind of redline are you looking at running? What is the application?
What kind of redline are you looking at running? What is the application?
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 62,198
Likes: 1
From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
Cruise-In IV Veteran
Cruise-In V Veteran
Mr. Vizzard one of the few car writters whose opinion I actually care about, did some dyno tests and they do in fact work. Just saying, the issue of beehive springs warrants further investigation. Part of their schtick is that they require less spring pressure. Not sure why, but that is interesting to me.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Mr. Vizzard one of the few car writters whose opinion I actually care about, did some dyno tests and they do in fact work. Just saying, the issue of beehive springs warrants further investigation. Part of their schtick is that they require less spring pressure. Not sure why, but that is interesting to me.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
I just researched the comp Cams Beehive.
The 26055 spring Could have @160 pounds closed at a 1.950 installed height and it would have @400# open with a max lift of about .620 inches.
So IMO it could be used with solid roller that had a street lobe profile of sub 236 duration and sub .600 lift and depending on valve weight 6500 or so max rpm
The 26055 spring Could have @160 pounds closed at a 1.950 installed height and it would have @400# open with a max lift of about .620 inches.
So IMO it could be used with solid roller that had a street lobe profile of sub 236 duration and sub .600 lift and depending on valve weight 6500 or so max rpm
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 62,198
Likes: 1
From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
Cruise-In IV Veteran
Cruise-In V Veteran
The spring you mention is pretty much recommended by compcams for all their cams XE Mechanical roller cams. Their drag race lobes, not so much.
here is Mr. Vizard's article.
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb50354.htm
here is Mr. Vizard's article.
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb50354.htm
Last edited by Guru_4_hire; Aug 25, 2007 at 11:02 PM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 259
Likes: 45
From: Columbus Mn
Wow! Some more great suggestions. What do I do live under a rock? I'm such an exclusive Comp Cams user, I've stopped looking at the other manufactures. Thanks for opening my eyes. I'm heading up north to the cabin for the labor day weekend starting tomorrow. Tonight my college night courses start. I guess I'll have to make some calls when I get back, and talk to Crower, Crane, T&D, etc. and decide (RR, or Shaft). If I go shaft, I'll most likely stick with Comp Cams, but from the short time I had to look at the other manufactures, I may consider another manufacture. I appreciate all the help and insight.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,139
Likes: 0
From: Salina Kansas
I wish I had gone with the T&D shaft rockers too (AFR 210 heads, AFR stud girdles, 630/630 lift, 250/258 dur solid roller), but they were more money...My engine builder did relieve the 1.6 comp cams rockers for spring clearance, which probably is not the best solution as George indicates, however, they also warranty their motors (even for drag racing), so worst case, if a rocker breaks, I get a new motor.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 95
Wow! Some more great suggestions. What do I do live under a rock? I'm such an exclusive Comp Cams user, I've stopped looking at the other manufactures. Thanks for opening my eyes. I'm heading up north to the cabin for the labor day weekend starting tomorrow. Tonight my college night courses start. I guess I'll have to make some calls when I get back, and talk to Crower, Crane, T&D, etc. and decide (RR, or Shaft). If I go shaft, I'll most likely stick with Comp Cams, but from the short time I had to look at the other manufactures, I may consider another manufacture. I appreciate all the help and insight.
has made a steel rocker shaft system for a long time, T & D has
now come out with a steel rocker shaft system. If you want
to go aluminum shaft rockers consider Cranes, it has no needle
bearings. Crower also has an aluminum shaft system and they
have three different types of steel roller rockers all are stainless steel,
one has a standard fulcrum position, another one has a .050 backset
fulcrum ment for .100 longer valves, and the .090 backset fulcrum rocker.
Last edited by Little Mouse; Aug 29, 2007 at 01:43 AM.
