Crate engine dilema
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,560
Likes: 4
From: Arlington texas
Crate engine dilema
Getting closer to time to buy a crate engine to drop in. I've been going back and forth on what I want to swap for. I've narrowed it down a few and was interested in hearing pros and cons while I make up my mind. I'm pretty sure that I'm gonna stick to a carb instead of going fuel injection, still unsure about keeping M21 or swapping out for a tremec 5 sp. and keeping my rear at 3.70.
1. LS364 /440 Hp
2. ZZ383 / 425 HP/ 460 TQ
3. ZZ454 / 440 HP
Price wise, they are close enough to the same that it doesn't matter. There's a part of me that would like to drop a BB w/ alum heads in there but I'd probably save alot of weight with the LS alum. block. Or I could just keep it simple and go 383.
If I went BB I really am not interested in going to the larger engines. A 454 would be more than enough for me. I'm planning on beefing up the rear anyway and the trans is already going to go for a rebuild if I stick with it.
Let me hear the pros and cons of these.
1. LS364 /440 Hp
2. ZZ383 / 425 HP/ 460 TQ
3. ZZ454 / 440 HP
Price wise, they are close enough to the same that it doesn't matter. There's a part of me that would like to drop a BB w/ alum heads in there but I'd probably save alot of weight with the LS alum. block. Or I could just keep it simple and go 383.
If I went BB I really am not interested in going to the larger engines. A 454 would be more than enough for me. I'm planning on beefing up the rear anyway and the trans is already going to go for a rebuild if I stick with it.
Let me hear the pros and cons of these.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,458
Likes: 1,484
From: Little Rock AR
Easy choice - 383.
The cost and headaches associated with a SB-BB swap will make the call for you. You will need to round up all the acessories and brackets if you do the SB-BB swap. None of that is needed for a 383 swap. Plenty of satisfaction without the extra effort and costs.
I personaly have a hard time avoiding the ZZ-502 swap for the same reason. It just looks SO GOOD until I force myself to think it through.
-Mark.
The cost and headaches associated with a SB-BB swap will make the call for you. You will need to round up all the acessories and brackets if you do the SB-BB swap. None of that is needed for a 383 swap. Plenty of satisfaction without the extra effort and costs.
I personaly have a hard time avoiding the ZZ-502 swap for the same reason. It just looks SO GOOD until I force myself to think it through.
-Mark.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 284
Likes: 7
From: Springfield New Jersey
Go with the 383
I love the LS motors - especially the new GM LS3 crate motors coming out this spring. After much research, I found the GM 383 to be the best choice for me. It's same price/power, but way easier to install. I spoke to the guys at GM Performance last summer at Carlisle, and they even recommended the 383. They said for a weekend car that gets driven less than a 1k miles a year, the LS isn't worth it. I also checked with a few shops to see what it would cost to install a LS motor - ouch ! Good luck - either motor would be a great addition to your car - Jay
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 24,125
Likes: 15
From: Columbia Missouri
Easy choice - 383.
The cost and headaches associated with a SB-BB swap will make the call for you. You will need to round up all the acessories and brackets if you do the SB-BB swap. None of that is needed for a 383 swap. Plenty of satisfaction without the extra effort and costs.
I personaly have a hard time avoiding the ZZ-502 swap for the same reason. It just looks SO GOOD until I force myself to think it through.
-Mark.
The cost and headaches associated with a SB-BB swap will make the call for you. You will need to round up all the acessories and brackets if you do the SB-BB swap. None of that is needed for a 383 swap. Plenty of satisfaction without the extra effort and costs.
I personaly have a hard time avoiding the ZZ-502 swap for the same reason. It just looks SO GOOD until I force myself to think it through.
-Mark.
A higher HP small block swap would be a LOT easier than putting a big block where a small block used to be.However, they say there is nothing quite like the brute force and torque of a big block, so the extra money and effort gathering parts might be worth it to you.
Pro
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 625
Likes: 49
From: Southern California
Well, you know the old saying, "there is no replacement for displacement". For generally comparable hp levels, the BB will usually give you a wider more enjoyable powerband. In other words more grunt everywhere. Unless you are a hardcore road racer, I doubt the extra weight would be that big a deal either. I know there are those who wouldn't agree, but to me, a small block guy is just another person who wishes he had a big block. When I'm at a race, cruise-in or car show, I'll just pass right on by "another" mouse motor, but I'll always stop to check out a Rat motor. If you are going to go to all the trouble, step up to the big block while you are at. Better performance and more visual appeal, which are the main things our hobby is all about, so what's not to like? I say BB all the way, or you'll kick yourself 
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,123
Likes: 433
From: Gladstone MO
C3 of Year Finalist (appearance mods) 2019
Well, you know the old saying, "there is no replacement for displacement". For generally comparable hp levels, the BB will usually give you a wider more enjoyable powerband. In other words more grunt everywhere. Unless you are a hardcore road racer, I doubt the extra weight would be that big a deal either. I know there are those who wouldn't agree, but to me, a small block guy is just another person who wishes he had a big block. When I'm at a race, cruise-in or car show, I'll just pass right on by "another" mouse motor, but I'll always stop to check out a Rat motor. If you are going to go to all the trouble, step up to the big block while you are at. Better performance and more visual appeal, which are the main things our hobby is all about, so what's not to like? I say BB all the way, or you'll kick yourself
Everyone has a small block. Dime-a-dozen. and I'm NOT picking on the SB guys either. I've seen some that kick azz. BB is the way to go. There's really is not that much that you have to swap. Front engine brackets and do some tweaking on the throttle linkage. The mounts are the same. And you'll need exhaust manifolds or headers.
Guys will say that you have to do the springs, rear end and all that. Maybe you will have to swap front springs- set the engine in the car before you decide. and the rear end? A hot SB will snap it nearly as fast as a BB will. I've got a 100% stock rear end in my Vette- with 4.11 gears. My biggest concern it that it'll hook up someday.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 39
From: Denver, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
i have to agree with 540 rat. there is no replacement for displacement!!! if also leave the option open to do more to it later on.. depending on if you are going to upgrade any more, which it sounds like you might. the LS i dont know much about, but i literally used to dream of a 454.. what were your dreams?? plus theres nothing better than makin the other guy go 
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Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 24,125
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From: Columbia Missouri
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,590
Likes: 403
From: Nashville TN
St. Jude Donor '09
I have the same dilema and pretty much narrowed down to your same list. A BB would be cool and not totally out of the question, but I'll probably buy Hooker sidepipes long before I upgrade the engine and don't want to have to replace headers if I got the BB. I was leaning towards building a 383 and thought I had made up my mind until I saw the LS364/440 based on the LS2 block. I can buy and all aluminum block/heads/pistons/intake GM crate engine for the same $$$ I was spending on a 383 build. That's a cool setup and I like the fact that it's carbureted. Also like the look of the spider intakes.
440HP for a little over $5K??? SWEET!!! Does anyone know any drawbacks to this motor? Let us know what you decide
440HP for a little over $5K??? SWEET!!! Does anyone know any drawbacks to this motor? Let us know what you decide
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,560
Likes: 4
From: Arlington texas
Well, you know the old saying, "there is no replacement for displacement". For generally comparable hp levels, the BB will usually give you a wider more enjoyable powerband. In other words more grunt everywhere. Unless you are a hardcore road racer, I doubt the extra weight would be that big a deal either. I know there are those who wouldn't agree, but to me, a small block guy is just another person who wishes he had a big block. When I'm at a race, cruise-in or car show, I'll just pass right on by "another" mouse motor, but I'll always stop to check out a Rat motor. If you are going to go to all the trouble, step up to the big block while you are at. Better performance and more visual appeal, which are the main things our hobby is all about, so what's not to like? I say BB all the way, or you'll kick yourself
You summed it up pretty nicely, as did the other BB guys. I've always had a sweet spot for the 454 for some reason. Weight is not really a concern for me but the alum. heads help even it out some. I need to replace springs anyway and I don't mind buying a few brackets. The point I am right now, anything that I need to swap any engine is ok and in the budget.
To be honest, before I was making the post I was leaning BB but keeping an open mind about all 3. Maybe you guys helped lean me a litlle more towards a BB.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,336
Likes: 1
From: North Bellmore Ny
St. Jude Donor '09
Well, you know the old saying, "there is no replacement for displacement". For generally comparable hp levels, the BB will usually give you a wider more enjoyable powerband. In other words more grunt everywhere. Unless you are a hardcore road racer, I doubt the extra weight would be that big a deal either. I know there are those who wouldn't agree, but to me, a small block guy is just another person who wishes he had a big block. When I'm at a race, cruise-in or car show, I'll just pass right on by "another" mouse motor, but I'll always stop to check out a Rat motor. If you are going to go to all the trouble, step up to the big block while you are at. Better performance and more visual appeal, which are the main things our hobby is all about, so what's not to like? I say BB all the way, or you'll kick yourself
The torque and horsepower ratings are peak. A BB will always be more fun because of the powerband ratings. I say go with bb if your looking for alot of street fun.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,892
Likes: 3
From: Springfield Illinois
Milo, have you seen the cam in the ZZ454? One word to describe it is mild and look at the power it produces. An old mag article said that with a Performer RPM Air Gap, you are talking roughly 500HP and 510FTLB. Think of the possiblities if you cammed it up a little! Not to mention the engine is built bullet proof!
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,560
Likes: 4
From: Arlington texas
Milo, have you seen the cam in the ZZ454? One word to describe it is mild and look at the power it produces. An old mag article said that with a Performer RPM Air Gap, you are talking roughly 500HP and 510FTLB. Think of the possiblities if you cammed it up a little! Not to mention the engine is built bullet proof!
I figured 383 would be the easiest swap, have plenty of power but everyone and their brother has one of them now.
The LS with the alum. block would have alot of advantages but not too sure about if thats what I want to be in there. I kind of lean towards if I was to go LS why not get one from a camaro with the OD tranny and computer for about the same price as a crate. I could swap heads and cam and keep it fuel injected.
I'm old school so I have always had a preference for a BB. I don't see any reason that it should be a difficult swap. The 502s and larger have just never appealed to me. I always liked the 454. A part of me would really like to go 454 with one of these on it. http://www.barrygrant.com/news/artic...oduct_004.aspx
I want the car to have a little show AND go to it. Who knows if or how many times I will change my mind until I pick the engine. As of right now, I'm picturing a BB under the hood and it looks good.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,560
Likes: 4
From: Arlington texas
What do you think is a problem with changing suspension parts? Mine need replacing any way so I just decide which one I need. As far as the money goes, it is all relavent. I don't have a car payment. I made a decision on buying a new vette and make payments or put a portion of that money into this one and plan on keeping it forever. I don't plan on ever selling it so and it's not an investment just a hobby to me.
It's a 78 and I'm about half way thru a convertible conversion right now. Trust me, I opened a can of worms on this car a long time ago. Picturing the end result is what keeps me going. I kind of enjoy knowing that I will have a car that is unique.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 364
Likes: 1
From: Dane Wisconsin
big block for the win like they have said a mild big block will make more power through the band that a small block. the zz motors are built very very well and the sky is the limit from there. the ls motor would be the next one on my list after the big block just becaue the motor is also a very good motor that has a lot of room to grow. very good heads a bottom end that is stronger then most and proven power combos. to me the sbc is like most here said pain jane everyone has them. this is not that 80's where a 383 with a cam was a monster that no one wanted to try to take on. big blocks will make awsome power all over and when you lift that hoood people will give big respect.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 436
Likes: 2
I've started looking for a C3 (69-71) and have decided I want to put a new 454 crate engine in it. I've always dreamed about that BB power, sound, etc. and just have to do it, despite all the good SB arguments. That said, if I end up buying a SB car and doing the swap (most likely), would it be a good idea to just get a new tranny too? I figure a 40 yr old tranny made for a SB probably won't last too long when bolted to a BB.
Also, I don't plan on ever drag racing the car at a track, just looking for fun times on the street. The only thing I'm confused on though is performance (read accel). I was reading about how the the '69 427/430hp did 0-60 in 6.8, but the '70 454/390hp did the same in 5.7. I understand different rear-end gears, etc. play a part, but why 1 sec faster w/ 40 less hp? Basically I'd like a car in the mid 5sec range for 0-60: what kind of BB should I be looking at for that kind of performance? It'd just be disappointing to have a 400+ HP engine pull a car slower than my current I-6 220HP engine does on the Bimmer. I realize it's a completely different kind of driving, but still want some good smash off the line. Thanks for all the help guys!
Also, I don't plan on ever drag racing the car at a track, just looking for fun times on the street. The only thing I'm confused on though is performance (read accel). I was reading about how the the '69 427/430hp did 0-60 in 6.8, but the '70 454/390hp did the same in 5.7. I understand different rear-end gears, etc. play a part, but why 1 sec faster w/ 40 less hp? Basically I'd like a car in the mid 5sec range for 0-60: what kind of BB should I be looking at for that kind of performance? It'd just be disappointing to have a 400+ HP engine pull a car slower than my current I-6 220HP engine does on the Bimmer. I realize it's a completely different kind of driving, but still want some good smash off the line. Thanks for all the help guys!