Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2001
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Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not
I finally removed the crank pulley that was secured in place with Bubba's 1/4" washer over the center bolt. I want to remove the balancer to detail it. Is it worth it? Will I disturb the engine balance by removing it? Any procedural tips. thanks
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,207
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From: Cave Creek AZ
Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
I really don't think that you will do anything to the motor balance just by taking the dampner off. They make a real nice degree tape that goes from the "0" point (tdc) 360 degrees around the balancer. After it is all detailed I think that adds a real nice touch, not to mention getting the timeing right on the money.
Just my .02
JoeB
Just my .02
JoeB
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 3,715
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From: VASS, NC, USA
Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
MOST BALANCERS ARE A PAIN TO GET OFF. IF YOU MUST REMOVE, USE A PROPER HARMONIC PULLER. EVEN WITH THE PROPER PULLER, SOME BALANCERS ARE VERY HARD TO REMOVE. SOME JUST POP RIGHT OF. REGARDLESS, USE THE PROPER PULLER. ITS NOT A HRD JOB AT ALL IF IT COMES RIGHT OFF. IF ITS STUCK, IT CAN TAKE SOME TIME. BE PATIENT
WHAT YEAR CAR DO YOU HAVE? IF YOU CAN, DETAIL IT IN THE CAR.
SOME HINTS: WIPE IT DOWN WITH GOOD DEGREASER. SAND LIGHTLY, THEN PAINT. IVE DONE IT IN THE CAR. JUST BUMP THE MOTOR OVER TO GET TO ALL SIDES
WHAT YEAR CAR DO YOU HAVE? IF YOU CAN, DETAIL IT IN THE CAR.
SOME HINTS: WIPE IT DOWN WITH GOOD DEGREASER. SAND LIGHTLY, THEN PAINT. IVE DONE IT IN THE CAR. JUST BUMP THE MOTOR OVER TO GET TO ALL SIDES
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2001
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Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (woodworkr)
Thanks Joe. Once removed, does the balancer have to be placed back on the engine in the exact same place?? What is the method for putting it back on. I know a puller is required to remove it. thanks
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 6,134
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From: Raleigh North Carolina
Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
You won't disturb the balance by removing it. It is keyed. You will need a puller, and should use an installer to put it back on instead of pounding on it. Standard service procedure warns against pounding on a balancer because it can compromise (harm) the relationship between the two rings and the rubber insert. Also, you are pounding on the thrust bearing when you do it that way. Since yours has a centerbolt, an installer can be used. Some of the older cranks (as in my own 327) do not have a centerbolt and you have to set the engine on its crank and press it on with a press, or find an ancient tool that was manufactured to install the balancer on these cranks. I detail balancers by sandblasting them, buffing them, priming and painting. I also paint a white line across the balancer at the timing mark I intend to use, or at TDC. I also mask off the rubber part to avoid damaging it with the solvent in paint. The tape works only if you use multiple light coats instead of one/two heavy coats.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 5,548
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From: Conn.
St. Jude Donor '21
Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
Not sure what year and model you have, but I learned that these balancers when worn, can actually blow up! The rubber ring dries out and rots, and then things start slipping out of place. Make sure yours is in good shape! I replaced mine with "Street Damper" fluid damper. Runs smoother. IMO
PS- hit it the night before with "PB Blaster", next morning with puller SHOULD be no problem!
PS- hit it the night before with "PB Blaster", next morning with puller SHOULD be no problem!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 6,134
Likes: 46
From: Raleigh North Carolina
Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
The installer is a different tool. Some autoparts stores sell them. Can't remember which ones right now. Maybe someone else can tell us. I've had mine for more than 25 years, so I can't remember where I bought it.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 6,134
Likes: 46
From: Raleigh North Carolina
Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
I would not use an impact wrench for this job. Here is the reason:
The remover should be well oiled- sometimes the balancer is on so tight that you can "pull" the remover bolts or threads. The only way you can tell if the tool is binding, and needs to be loosened and re-oiled, is to do it by hand so you can feel the tools progress.
To hold the crank from turning (automatic) I insert a screw driver amongst the puller bolts. With a standard, put the car in gear and set the parking brake.
During the install process, if the outer installer bearing does not turn freely, this causes the pilot to snap off in the crank. Then you have a major problem. Using an impact wrench you will not be able to judge the tools progress and can easily cause yourself a lot of grief. You need to "feel" the tools progress as you go.
A while back, another forum member had this exact problem... he had a devil of a time getting that broken pilot out of the crank.
The remover should be well oiled- sometimes the balancer is on so tight that you can "pull" the remover bolts or threads. The only way you can tell if the tool is binding, and needs to be loosened and re-oiled, is to do it by hand so you can feel the tools progress.
To hold the crank from turning (automatic) I insert a screw driver amongst the puller bolts. With a standard, put the car in gear and set the parking brake.
During the install process, if the outer installer bearing does not turn freely, this causes the pilot to snap off in the crank. Then you have a major problem. Using an impact wrench you will not be able to judge the tools progress and can easily cause yourself a lot of grief. You need to "feel" the tools progress as you go.
A while back, another forum member had this exact problem... he had a devil of a time getting that broken pilot out of the crank.
Thread Starter
Instructor
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Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (Tom454)
Tom, I saw that previous posting with the guy who broke the pilot. I intend to put the center bolt back in, center punch and pull from there. Good tips on keeping the balancer from turning. Is it possible to align the puller so the rear balancer seal is not punctered? Also, I have a friend with monster arms-will he be a requirement for this job? Called the Snap-On guy, he has a puller and installer for chevy small blocks. Any other tools required?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 6,134
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From: Raleigh North Carolina
Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
There is only one seal... the one in the timing chain cover. Just be careful you do not nick it.
The puller should have a pilot that rides directly on the crank (no crank bolt) and does not damage the snout. This eliminates the need to center punch the bolt etc. In fact, you should never use the pullers center bolt directly on anything... it usually has a point which is supposed to ride in an angled (matching) adapter. If your puller is missing the adapter, then you need to locate a replacement.
RE: The arms... I have been accused of being apelike when it comes to autorepairs... but I am not a big guy (5'9"/170). If you really need an ape, then your tool is probably binding... loosen it and recheck & re-oil. If you don't do a lot of autorepairs, then the torque will be hard for you to gauge. This is a "OJT" project. Dive in an find out how it works. Yours may come off and go on effortlessly. Some of them can be a PITA.
[Modified by Tom454, 11:11 AM 12/18/2001]
The puller should have a pilot that rides directly on the crank (no crank bolt) and does not damage the snout. This eliminates the need to center punch the bolt etc. In fact, you should never use the pullers center bolt directly on anything... it usually has a point which is supposed to ride in an angled (matching) adapter. If your puller is missing the adapter, then you need to locate a replacement.
RE: The arms... I have been accused of being apelike when it comes to autorepairs... but I am not a big guy (5'9"/170). If you really need an ape, then your tool is probably binding... loosen it and recheck & re-oil. If you don't do a lot of autorepairs, then the torque will be hard for you to gauge. This is a "OJT" project. Dive in an find out how it works. Yours may come off and go on effortlessly. Some of them can be a PITA.
[Modified by Tom454, 11:11 AM 12/18/2001]
Racer
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 489
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From: Orlando Florida
Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
If you don't have a harmonic Balance puller, Autozone will let you use one of there's for a $15 dollar deposit. You can't beat that if your like me and don't have a garage full of tools.
P.S. Does any one know what effect if any having a 305 harmonic balancer will have on the performance of my 350 engine. I know I can't set the timing for S___, but other than that is there a reason to replace the Hb?
[Modified by Warp70, 6:51 PM 12/18/2001]
P.S. Does any one know what effect if any having a 305 harmonic balancer will have on the performance of my 350 engine. I know I can't set the timing for S___, but other than that is there a reason to replace the Hb?
[Modified by Warp70, 6:51 PM 12/18/2001]
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 137
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Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
It's amazing how easy a job can be when you have the right tools. I purchased a Snap-On balancer puller and installer. The kit came with several adapters (I used the flat one). The balancer came right off.
This is where I need some advise. The balancer appears to be in good shape, however, the middle seal is out of alignment. It's an 8" balancer. Does it need to be rebuilt? How will this effect engine balance?
This is where I need some advise. The balancer appears to be in good shape, however, the middle seal is out of alignment. It's an 8" balancer. Does it need to be rebuilt? How will this effect engine balance?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 6,134
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From: Raleigh North Carolina
Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
RE: the 305 balamcer on a 350- The 305 balancer has a tendency for the ring to work its way back toward the engine off the hub. They are not known for good durability. They must also be used as a "set" with the associated timing cover because of the timing tab location. I just finished punching out my 305 .030 and re-installing it in my Silverado... I'm not a big fan of 305 technology. The casting on the heads was so rough that I had to grind the ports... which I normally would consider a waste of time for a grocery getter.
RE: The flexible "seal" (it's not really a seal, per se) is what allows the outer ring to move to absorb torsional vibration. If the ring has moved, the balancer is no longer any good. There is a company that rebuilds these, but I can't remember where I read their name. In my opinion, for the money you will end up spending both in shipping & repair, your best bet is to purchase a new balancer.
RE: The flexible "seal" (it's not really a seal, per se) is what allows the outer ring to move to absorb torsional vibration. If the ring has moved, the balancer is no longer any good. There is a company that rebuilds these, but I can't remember where I read their name. In my opinion, for the money you will end up spending both in shipping & repair, your best bet is to purchase a new balancer.
Thread Starter
Instructor
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Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (Tom454)
I have another balancer that came off a similar motor. They have the same part number and appear to be identical. Can I interchange them without disturbing the engine balance. Thanks
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 6,134
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From: Raleigh North Carolina
Re: Harmonic Balancer: To remove or not (mulchie)
You won't disturb the engine balance as long as your engine is internally balanced. If you have a collection of parts (crank, damper, flywheel) that was externally balanced for some reason, then you may (not will) disturb the balance. Although it can happen (to have an externally balanced 350) it is not likely. You can order just about any type of custom grind , material and counterweight crank from custom crank shops. I doubt you have one of these in your 350.
