Build it or crate it?
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 1999
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From: PA
Build it or crate it?
I am looking into the pros and cons of building a motor vs a crate motor. I would like to keep cost as reasonable as possible to attain 300-350hp without sacrificing durability. The crate motor I am looking at is the 330 hp GM performance crate engine, which I can do for less than 2 grand. I figure this setup would be a good starting point if I decide to change cam, heads, etc if i need more performance. Could I build a motor for significantly cheaper and get more from it?
Race Director
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From: CT
Re: Build it or crate it? (Brett K)
these days the best way to go is the crate! skip all the :bs and get a motor with a warrenty. this way you know the power you have and there is no question about it. plus you have no miles on it!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Semper ubi, sub ubi
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Re: Build it or crate it? (Brett K)
Unless you have experience rebuilding and assembling engines, you probably won't be able to put an engine together for the $2100 the GM performance engine costs. Don't be taken in by the apparent economy of the crate engine. Wether you rebuild or buy a crate, your going to spend more money than you planned.
You could build a little better motor for slightly more money, but without the warranty. You can buy a ZZ-4 short block for about $1800-1900, and then stick a set of Vortec heads $430, then you'd have to get all the stuff to go on the engine, self guiding lifters, pushrods, head gaskets, and rocker covers. If you got the ZZ-4 short block you'd have to get the cam, lifters and timing set. (Might as well go with the GM Hot Cam.)
Or you could for go the Vortec heads and get Edelbrock E-Tec Aluminum heads (Edelbrocks version of the Vortec, they out flow Vortecs or GM Fastburn heads) for about $950.
Of course you'll have buy a waterpump, distributor, flywheel or flexiplate, balancer and a Vortec specific intake for either engine. Add another few hundred dollars for things like new motor mounts, hoses, belts, etc.
Either way, it isn't cheap, but it sure is fun!
You could build a little better motor for slightly more money, but without the warranty. You can buy a ZZ-4 short block for about $1800-1900, and then stick a set of Vortec heads $430, then you'd have to get all the stuff to go on the engine, self guiding lifters, pushrods, head gaskets, and rocker covers. If you got the ZZ-4 short block you'd have to get the cam, lifters and timing set. (Might as well go with the GM Hot Cam.)
Or you could for go the Vortec heads and get Edelbrock E-Tec Aluminum heads (Edelbrocks version of the Vortec, they out flow Vortecs or GM Fastburn heads) for about $950.
Of course you'll have buy a waterpump, distributor, flywheel or flexiplate, balancer and a Vortec specific intake for either engine. Add another few hundred dollars for things like new motor mounts, hoses, belts, etc.
Either way, it isn't cheap, but it sure is fun!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 831
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From: Reston VA
Re: Build it or crate it? (Brett K)
I just finished the build it route. A good friend of mine told me to go crate. In retro spec you cant beat the crate motors today for warranty, price, performance, dyno results, and PIA factor. Next motor for me will be a crate.
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 55
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From: Dallas Tx
Re: Build it or crate it? (QuickVet)
What about those "turn key" crate engines? Or should someone lookin for a new engine go for one that needs a carb and all the etc's? In the long run wouldn't it be cheaper to do the turn key?
-bryant
-bryant
Pro
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Montrose CA
Re: Build it or crate it? (Brett K)
I just got done with a rebuild and at this early stage, I love the results. Better than that, I love the cost... maybe I'm just lucky because of where I live but I had my pu**y L-48 rebuilt into a stud 383... This '76 runs the way a Corvette should. Strong. Now, ready for the price... $1350 ready to reinstall. I went through the crate debate but when I found that I could keep my matching numbers and see 350 (+) at the engine... My decision was made quickly. The test of time will tell whether I made the right choice. I can report that I have oil leaks from the pan gasket up front... you probably don't have to put up with that with a crate engine!
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Team Owner
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From: Guinness Its whats for B'fast JAWGA
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Re: Build it or crate it? (Carl in LA)
If you're looking for a good street motor go with a crate unless you want to run nitrous in the motor. Most crate motors don't run forged pistons. The ZZ4 is a great bang for the buck.
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,569
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From: Hawaii
Re: Build it or crate it? (Brett K)
I think it depends on your goals for the engine. I am a very inexperienced first time hot rodder and I wanted to do it myself the first time not only to have a higher performance engine but to also learn how it all went together. The total cost of building it myself was higher than a crate engine but what I learned as my first time tearing an engine apart and putting it back together again with new and better parts is worth quite a bit to me and now I have been able to save money on some of the repairs (which I wouldn't have had with a crate engine). Anyway, I am pretty sure my next one will be a crate engine if I can't keep this one put together. Good luck!
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 43,136
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From: Thomson Georgia
Re: Build it or crate it? (Carl in LA)
I just got done with a rebuild and at this early stage, I love the results. Better than that, I love the cost... maybe I'm just lucky because of where I live but I had my pu**y L-48 rebuilt into a stud 383... This '76 runs the way a Corvette should. Strong. Now, ready for the price... $1350 ready to reinstall. I went through the crate debate but when I found that I could keep my matching numbers and see 350 (+) at the engine... My decision was made quickly. The test of time will tell whether I made the right choice. I can report that I have oil leaks from the pan gasket up front... you probably don't have to put up with that with a crate engine!
Carl I am certainly with you on this one....I like building the original motor ...I have about 1100- 1300 TOTAL(not including beer) In my rebuild/UPGRADE and it is desktoped dyno'd around 360hp Of course myself and a friend supplied the Labor..and my buddie happens to own a shop :cheers: There is a true satisfaction of doing it yourself vs buying it.. :D
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,043
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From: Elkhorn WI
Re: Build it or crate it? (Ganey)
if you want to play, build with forged internals.......then you can play with a strong motor..if your only going to drive around...crate..
i can't wait untill I rebuild my bottom end..... :yesnod:
i can't wait untill I rebuild my bottom end..... :yesnod:
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,399
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From: Olmsted Falls, Ohio
Re: Build it or crate it? (mountainmotor)
Build, if you like to work on cars, engines, etc. and get the satisfaction of seeing your work running on the street.
Crate, if you don't like getting your hands in the engine internals, or don't feel comfortable doing the engine work yourself.
FWIW: 300-350 hp is not a lot to ask of your existing motor, providing the bottom end is in good shape. Dual exhaust, heads, cam, intake, carb, headers, etc. All "top-end" and external stuff, this is going to get me about 330-350+ this spring.
[Modified by KenSny, 9:16 AM 1/29/2002]
Crate, if you don't like getting your hands in the engine internals, or don't feel comfortable doing the engine work yourself.
FWIW: 300-350 hp is not a lot to ask of your existing motor, providing the bottom end is in good shape. Dual exhaust, heads, cam, intake, carb, headers, etc. All "top-end" and external stuff, this is going to get me about 330-350+ this spring.
[Modified by KenSny, 9:16 AM 1/29/2002]
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 10,039
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From: FL
Re: Build it or crate it? (KenSny)
I decided to build mine but one of the primary reasons is I have to move back to WA this summer and did not want to deal with having another block lying around. Plus saved me $200 with the engine builder to use my core.
Advantages of build it is you get exactly what you want.
My buildup:
.030 over, stock stroke for 355.
Eagle crank and rods
KB pistons
Balanced with my flywheel
New oil pum, pan, timing cover, timing chain, balancer, etc.
Comp XE262 cam
1.6 roller tip rockers
Edelbrock RPM heads with 3 angle valve job, Comp springs, Ferrea valves
$3579 with lifetime limited warranty on labor.
Plus, MA does not tax on labor just parts and since I am military, WA resident living in RI, they are looking at the tax issue.
All that siad, next one will probably be a crate. :crazy:
Advantages of build it is you get exactly what you want.
My buildup:
.030 over, stock stroke for 355.
Eagle crank and rods
KB pistons
Balanced with my flywheel
New oil pum, pan, timing cover, timing chain, balancer, etc.
Comp XE262 cam
1.6 roller tip rockers
Edelbrock RPM heads with 3 angle valve job, Comp springs, Ferrea valves
$3579 with lifetime limited warranty on labor.
Plus, MA does not tax on labor just parts and since I am military, WA resident living in RI, they are looking at the tax issue.
All that siad, next one will probably be a crate. :crazy:
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
From: Dallas Tx
Re: Build it or crate it?
I like the "build it" approach, but even if my grandpa and I do the work at his shop, I don't know how cheap it would be. I have 170,000 on my engine from the previouse owner who used it as a daily driver. How reliable will it be, even as a weekend driver?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,017
Likes: 2
From: The problem is all inside your head she said to me.
Re: Build it or crate it? (KenSny)
Build, if you like to work on cars, engines, etc. and get the satisfaction of seeing your work running on the street.
Crate, if you don't like getting your hands in the engine internals, or don't feel comfortable doing the engine work yourself.
FWIW: 300-350 hp is not a lot to ask of your existing motor, providing the bottom end is in good shape. Dual exhaust, heads, cam, intake, carb, headers, etc. All "top-end" and external stuff, this is going to get me about 330-350+ this spring.
[Modified by KenSny, 9:16 AM 1/29/2002]
Crate, if you don't like getting your hands in the engine internals, or don't feel comfortable doing the engine work yourself.
FWIW: 300-350 hp is not a lot to ask of your existing motor, providing the bottom end is in good shape. Dual exhaust, heads, cam, intake, carb, headers, etc. All "top-end" and external stuff, this is going to get me about 330-350+ this spring.
[Modified by KenSny, 9:16 AM 1/29/2002]
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,896
Likes: 2
From: CO
Re: Build it or crate it? (bryant080)
I vote for the crate motor.
Easier, Guarenteed to work and no mis-matched parts. These crate motors have been dynoed and worked on by professional engineers who have access to all sorts of cool tools. The heads get tested and matched with a cam to ensure that you will get good power out of that engine at a very reasonable cost. It would take you tens of thousands of dollars to get the testing that GM does for their engines. They have done the guess work and created a package for many different needs, just select one and order.
I have a friend who claims to have built his motor but in reality the machine shop did all the work. The only thing he did was bold on the heads and set the valves. Thats not building a motor, thats bolting on heads and setting the valves. :confused:
Whatever choice you go with Im sure you will enjoy the POWER which is why we all do it. :cheers:
you really can't make the wrong decision.
[Modified by flood, 2:36 PM 1/29/2002]
Easier, Guarenteed to work and no mis-matched parts. These crate motors have been dynoed and worked on by professional engineers who have access to all sorts of cool tools. The heads get tested and matched with a cam to ensure that you will get good power out of that engine at a very reasonable cost. It would take you tens of thousands of dollars to get the testing that GM does for their engines. They have done the guess work and created a package for many different needs, just select one and order.
I have a friend who claims to have built his motor but in reality the machine shop did all the work. The only thing he did was bold on the heads and set the valves. Thats not building a motor, thats bolting on heads and setting the valves. :confused:
Whatever choice you go with Im sure you will enjoy the POWER which is why we all do it. :cheers:
you really can't make the wrong decision.
[Modified by flood, 2:36 PM 1/29/2002]
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: Bloomington IL
Re: Build it or crate it? (Brett K)
"If you build it, they will come..." (like mustangs, camaros and imports looking to get whooped)
I would build, crate engine options are becoming to "cookie cutter" for my taste, no offense to those who crate. I like the satisfaction of pulling up to an event and being able to say I built the engine from the mains up. Plus you know exactly who to blame if something goes wrong. Go with good quaility components, match them properly (which is another fun thing about building your own engine, agonizing over cam sizes, intake and carb clearance, distributors, heads AAARRRGGGG!!!!! wouldn't trade it though) get some good resource materials on building and you'll be surprised. I have to admit that the ZZ4 and 350 HI-Perf are enticing engines, with the warranty and all, but I would still say build. :chevy
I would build, crate engine options are becoming to "cookie cutter" for my taste, no offense to those who crate. I like the satisfaction of pulling up to an event and being able to say I built the engine from the mains up. Plus you know exactly who to blame if something goes wrong. Go with good quaility components, match them properly (which is another fun thing about building your own engine, agonizing over cam sizes, intake and carb clearance, distributors, heads AAARRRGGGG!!!!! wouldn't trade it though) get some good resource materials on building and you'll be surprised. I have to admit that the ZZ4 and 350 HI-Perf are enticing engines, with the warranty and all, but I would still say build. :chevy