High RPM short travel HR lifters, solid cam
05-02-2009, 07:10 PM
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High RPM short travel HR lifters, solid cam
ok, here we go. I know im gonna get crucified for throwing this one out there, but it should be fun.
I hear a lot about guys running solid roller lifters on hydraulic roller cams, but anyone running hydraulic roller lifters on a solid roller grind cam?
Lunati and comp both have some new high rpm (7200 rpm) HR lifters out.
Lunati: http://www.lunatipower.com/ProductGr...0&cid=28&pid=2
The tech guy I talked to at Lunati said these could be used on a solid roller grind cam, also said they can take spring pressures of 225 on the seat, and up to 550 open.
Comp: http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Ca...pdf/page10.pdf
The tech guy I talked to at Comp said these could be used on a solid roller grind cam too. said they can take spring pressures of 150-170 on the seat, and up to 400 open.
not that anyone's interested, but this is the cam im gonna run the lunati lifters on:
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1993&gid=290
but with a 108 ICL and a 112 LSA.
Ive been told that they HR lifters will make the solid cam act larger at .050
since the lash spec for the cam is low (.016), the lunati tech guy said that the .050 duration would grow by .008
Anyway, anyone have any thoughts on doing this? streetability, duration effects on performance, sheering force on the lifters, effects of a rev kit, anything else you think of
-Dan
I hear a lot about guys running solid roller lifters on hydraulic roller cams, but anyone running hydraulic roller lifters on a solid roller grind cam?
Lunati and comp both have some new high rpm (7200 rpm) HR lifters out.
Lunati: http://www.lunatipower.com/ProductGr...0&cid=28&pid=2
The tech guy I talked to at Lunati said these could be used on a solid roller grind cam, also said they can take spring pressures of 225 on the seat, and up to 550 open.
Comp: http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Ca...pdf/page10.pdf
The tech guy I talked to at Comp said these could be used on a solid roller grind cam too. said they can take spring pressures of 150-170 on the seat, and up to 400 open.
not that anyone's interested, but this is the cam im gonna run the lunati lifters on:
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1993&gid=290
but with a 108 ICL and a 112 LSA.
Ive been told that they HR lifters will make the solid cam act larger at .050
since the lash spec for the cam is low (.016), the lunati tech guy said that the .050 duration would grow by .008
Anyway, anyone have any thoughts on doing this? streetability, duration effects on performance, sheering force on the lifters, effects of a rev kit, anything else you think of
-Dan
Last edited by dp9; 05-02-2009 at 11:24 PM.
05-02-2009, 07:51 PM
#2
Safety Car
If you're running a solid roller cam, the proper lifters for that cam will outperform any hydraulic lifters you would install. That's the reason for going solid roller....no rev kits or other aids needed. There are low lash cams available if you wish, or you could custom order the cam with the duration specs you want.
Now if you're going hyd. roller, however, these high rpm lifters could save you the expense of a rev kit if your cam can make power at the higher RPM.
Now if you're going hyd. roller, however, these high rpm lifters could save you the expense of a rev kit if your cam can make power at the higher RPM.
Last edited by C3 Stroker; 05-02-2009 at 08:05 PM.
05-03-2009, 11:06 AM
#5
Race Director
05-03-2009, 03:04 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
If you're running a solid roller cam, the proper lifters for that cam will outperform any hydraulic lifters you would install. That's the reason for going solid roller....no rev kits or other aids needed. There are low lash cams available if you wish, or you could custom order the cam with the duration specs you want.
Now if you're going hyd. roller, however, these high rpm lifters could save you the expense of a rev kit if your cam can make power at the higher RPM.
Now if you're going hyd. roller, however, these high rpm lifters could save you the expense of a rev kit if your cam can make power at the higher RPM.
05-03-2009, 04:08 PM
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I still don't get why these hybrid are so interesting to so many people?
The ONE thing a hyd roller cam can do is be quieter than some solid cams. To do that takes a cam design that doesn't slam the valves around..primarily on the closing side for both of them. The typical HR cam has pretty big seat duration for the .050/.0200/.300 duration numbers...so you lose some low speed manners and some *snap*.
The short travel HR lifters were designed for goofy racing class rules that required HR lifters. The idea was to save costs and restrict everyone a little. But people are too smart for that..they spent insane $$$ buying lifters that met the rules, yet acted like Solid lifters. Before that people machined their own lifter guts to accomplish the same thing. No one cared if they were quiet....they just wanted them to meet the rules and rev. better. They aren't too quiet.
A solid cam doesn't have all these issues. In fact a good solid flat tappet will move off the seat as fast or faster than most rollers. After the mid lift area the roller takes over.
So we put short travel hyd lifters on a solid roller....it is now not able to be as quiet as a HR should be, it makes it a little lazier down low...and it won't rev like the SR.
There are many lobes that are marketed to work as a Hyd and as a solid cam. That means they aren't that great at being either one.
We just did the SR lifter on a Hyd roller cam test. Guess what? SR lifter set at .002 did better than the Hyd roller lifters even at lower speeds..and flat spanked them above 6400 rpm. Noise wasn't an issue.
If you are limiting your self on RPM with a BBC to under 6500 RPM the Hyd lifters do OK.....if it's a small block...you can get near 6800- 7000 if you're lucky...if it's an LS...you can go well past 7000 rpm. It all comes down to valvetrain weight, pushrods etc.
With all the detail work that is done to design cams today for specific applications and needs...there is no need to mix and match stuff. Just get what you need. Setting valves these days is almost a non issue....good parts don't require you to mess with them.
JIM
The ONE thing a hyd roller cam can do is be quieter than some solid cams. To do that takes a cam design that doesn't slam the valves around..primarily on the closing side for both of them. The typical HR cam has pretty big seat duration for the .050/.0200/.300 duration numbers...so you lose some low speed manners and some *snap*.
The short travel HR lifters were designed for goofy racing class rules that required HR lifters. The idea was to save costs and restrict everyone a little. But people are too smart for that..they spent insane $$$ buying lifters that met the rules, yet acted like Solid lifters. Before that people machined their own lifter guts to accomplish the same thing. No one cared if they were quiet....they just wanted them to meet the rules and rev. better. They aren't too quiet.
A solid cam doesn't have all these issues. In fact a good solid flat tappet will move off the seat as fast or faster than most rollers. After the mid lift area the roller takes over.
So we put short travel hyd lifters on a solid roller....it is now not able to be as quiet as a HR should be, it makes it a little lazier down low...and it won't rev like the SR.
There are many lobes that are marketed to work as a Hyd and as a solid cam. That means they aren't that great at being either one.
We just did the SR lifter on a Hyd roller cam test. Guess what? SR lifter set at .002 did better than the Hyd roller lifters even at lower speeds..and flat spanked them above 6400 rpm. Noise wasn't an issue.
If you are limiting your self on RPM with a BBC to under 6500 RPM the Hyd lifters do OK.....if it's a small block...you can get near 6800- 7000 if you're lucky...if it's an LS...you can go well past 7000 rpm. It all comes down to valvetrain weight, pushrods etc.
With all the detail work that is done to design cams today for specific applications and needs...there is no need to mix and match stuff. Just get what you need. Setting valves these days is almost a non issue....good parts don't require you to mess with them.
JIM
05-03-2009, 05:18 PM
#9
Race Director
I still don't get why these hybrid are so interesting to so many people?
The ONE thing a hyd roller cam can do is be quieter than some solid cams. To do that takes a cam design that doesn't slam the valves around..primarily on the closing side for both of them. The typical HR cam has pretty big seat duration for the .050/.0200/.300 duration numbers...so you lose some low speed manners and some *snap*.
The short travel HR lifters were designed for goofy racing class rules that required HR lifters. The idea was to save costs and restrict everyone a little. But people are too smart for that..they spent insane $$$ buying lifters that met the rules, yet acted like Solid lifters. Before that people machined their own lifter guts to accomplish the same thing. No one cared if they were quiet....they just wanted them to meet the rules and rev. better. They aren't too quiet.
A solid cam doesn't have all these issues. In fact a good solid flat tappet will move off the seat as fast or faster than most rollers. After the mid lift area the roller takes over.
So we put short travel hyd lifters on a solid roller....it is now not able to be as quiet as a HR should be, it makes it a little lazier down low...and it won't rev like the SR.
There are many lobes that are marketed to work as a Hyd and as a solid cam. That means they aren't that great at being either one.
We just did the SR lifter on a Hyd roller cam test. Guess what? SR lifter set at .002 did better than the Hyd roller lifters even at lower speeds..and flat spanked them above 6400 rpm. Noise wasn't an issue.
If you are limiting your self on RPM with a BBC to under 6500 RPM the Hyd lifters do OK.....if it's a small block...you can get near 6800- 7000 if you're lucky...if it's an LS...you can go well past 7000 rpm. It all comes down to valvetrain weight, pushrods etc.
With all the detail work that is done to design cams today for specific applications and needs...there is no need to mix and match stuff. Just get what you need. Setting valves these days is almost a non issue....good parts don't require you to mess with them.
JIM
The ONE thing a hyd roller cam can do is be quieter than some solid cams. To do that takes a cam design that doesn't slam the valves around..primarily on the closing side for both of them. The typical HR cam has pretty big seat duration for the .050/.0200/.300 duration numbers...so you lose some low speed manners and some *snap*.
The short travel HR lifters were designed for goofy racing class rules that required HR lifters. The idea was to save costs and restrict everyone a little. But people are too smart for that..they spent insane $$$ buying lifters that met the rules, yet acted like Solid lifters. Before that people machined their own lifter guts to accomplish the same thing. No one cared if they were quiet....they just wanted them to meet the rules and rev. better. They aren't too quiet.
A solid cam doesn't have all these issues. In fact a good solid flat tappet will move off the seat as fast or faster than most rollers. After the mid lift area the roller takes over.
So we put short travel hyd lifters on a solid roller....it is now not able to be as quiet as a HR should be, it makes it a little lazier down low...and it won't rev like the SR.
There are many lobes that are marketed to work as a Hyd and as a solid cam. That means they aren't that great at being either one.
We just did the SR lifter on a Hyd roller cam test. Guess what? SR lifter set at .002 did better than the Hyd roller lifters even at lower speeds..and flat spanked them above 6400 rpm. Noise wasn't an issue.
If you are limiting your self on RPM with a BBC to under 6500 RPM the Hyd lifters do OK.....if it's a small block...you can get near 6800- 7000 if you're lucky...if it's an LS...you can go well past 7000 rpm. It all comes down to valvetrain weight, pushrods etc.
With all the detail work that is done to design cams today for specific applications and needs...there is no need to mix and match stuff. Just get what you need. Setting valves these days is almost a non issue....good parts don't require you to mess with them.
JIM
I have T&D shaft rockers and they stay set where you set them, I am pretty impressed
05-03-2009, 06:00 PM
#10
Safety Car
Not meaning to sidetrack here, but MotorHead, you have a setup similar to mine w/solid roller 427sb and T&D shafts on AFR's......the lifters I have are Comp Endure-X rollers; I can safely rev this combo to 7500 rpm. I'm guessing you should have this potential currently also. Should be an interesting reply about the new super hyd. lifters.
05-03-2009, 06:33 PM
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There are also folks who take HR's and adjust them all the way down to the bottom of the travel and then back off enough to allow .005"-.010" clearance (dial indicator) in lifter. That removes most of the oil from the equation and can allow some more RPM. Just the opposite of the old *zero lashing* technique.
JIM
JIM
05-03-2009, 06:42 PM
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reading through all of this...I still don't understand the benefits of HR vs SR...why not just use the lifters for the cam it was designed? FWIW..I've reved mine to 7200 and had let up as the revs were climbing...I'm just not used to a 4.25" stroker reving that high....
05-03-2009, 07:04 PM
#13
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Longevity is all I would be looking for if it revved the same as my solid rollers, I will also get almost .020" more lift
05-03-2009, 07:20 PM
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The only way they last any longer is the cams for HR's are milder...and use less spring pressure. A HR lifter still has needles. Once you start putting pressure on them like a SR.....they die too.
The HR's don't even have pressurized oil to axles...so you can imagine what will happen when everyone starts turning them into solids.
I'd rather use a mild SR..it doesn't require much spring...and can live a long time.
We just busted well over 800HP with a very streetable flat tappet in Doug's 555" motor I built for him. On pump gas at 6500 RPM! We tested SR, HR and SF....all did pretty well!
JIM
The HR's don't even have pressurized oil to axles...so you can imagine what will happen when everyone starts turning them into solids.
I'd rather use a mild SR..it doesn't require much spring...and can live a long time.
We just busted well over 800HP with a very streetable flat tappet in Doug's 555" motor I built for him. On pump gas at 6500 RPM! We tested SR, HR and SF....all did pretty well!
JIM
05-03-2009, 08:37 PM
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http://www.iskycams.com/ISKY-RedZoneEZRoll3.pdf
SR with pressurized oiling and no needle bearings might be an answer.
I want my lifters to survive on the street, so I've been shying away from SR. I want them to rev to 7200 rpm, but I dont want to blow up HR. All these lifters are claiming they can do both.
05-03-2009, 10:35 PM
#18
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That's correct they make street roller cams and I got over 20,000 miles on the first generation Comp Cams solid roller lifters with no oiling to the bearings other than crankcase splash.
Key was not to let it idle too long with revving it up and I used oil restrictors to keep more oil in the center / bottom of the motor rather than in the valve covers.
I am now using their new Endurex or whatever it they are called and they have direct oiling to the bearings, we will see how long they last
Key was not to let it idle too long with revving it up and I used oil restrictors to keep more oil in the center / bottom of the motor rather than in the valve covers.
I am now using their new Endurex or whatever it they are called and they have direct oiling to the bearings, we will see how long they last
05-04-2009, 07:34 AM
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Crap I just remembered you guys are using retro lifters.
If your using an OE hyd roller block instead of blowing you cash for some 700 buck lifters you can get some caddy racing lifters as well.
If your using an OE hyd roller block instead of blowing you cash for some 700 buck lifters you can get some caddy racing lifters as well.
05-04-2009, 11:25 AM
#20
The only way they last any longer is the cams for HR's are milder...and use less spring pressure. A HR lifter still has needles. Once you start putting pressure on them like a SR.....they die too.
The HR's don't even have pressurized oil to axles...so you can imagine what will happen when everyone starts turning them into solids.
I'd rather use a mild SR..it doesn't require much spring...and can live a long time.
We just busted well over 800HP with a very streetable flat tappet in Doug's 555" motor I built for him. On pump gas at 6500 RPM! We tested SR, HR and SF....all did pretty well!
JIM
The HR's don't even have pressurized oil to axles...so you can imagine what will happen when everyone starts turning them into solids.
I'd rather use a mild SR..it doesn't require much spring...and can live a long time.
We just busted well over 800HP with a very streetable flat tappet in Doug's 555" motor I built for him. On pump gas at 6500 RPM! We tested SR, HR and SF....all did pretty well!
JIM