The 330cc Little Chiefs flow 440cfm, you forgot them.

Like stated above there is nothing special about an LS motor, you can get $2000 heads that flow 320cfm+ I have them on my motor and they are 23 deg heads, they don't need the 15 degree angle the LS heads need to flow these numbers.

You want to get into different valve angles and closer to the same angle of the LS heads and there are an endless number of heads that will outflow LS heads and you can drive them on the street.

No big deal, cubes is cubes and flow is flow so a Gen 1 motor with same cubes and same flow heads will pull the same as a LS motor simple physics here. To say an 427ci LS motor with heads that flow 350cfm is going to make more power that 427ci Gen 1 motor with heads that flow 350cfm is simply absurd

 

*sigh* it's always fun talking to people that don't get it. So, you're saying that a 330cc head is streetable?

And...is this an offer to build a 427 CID GEN I SBC and put it up against a GEN III 427 CID engine? Because I'll make more power, for far less money - with a streetable idle, 25 MPG and running the A/C doing it. Your 427 will be a nasty, fire-breathing beast that won't idle, will suck gas and be a complete disaster to drive. If only it were as simple as you seem to think it is

All you need to do is pull your head up and look at what's happening right now with the LS and how much power people are making.

What's absurd is this discussion - but it's fun

 

Here's GM LSX block 454...... I think it's gonna be around $12k too-and from what I've read pretty streetable not to mention GM Dynoed w/ 600+HP and weigh in at about 500lbs...

HOWEVER- When you see a motor that requires 7 valve cover bolts-now that means business AND you know the oiling system (RE: LS) is not going to fail you.

 

If you want to have some fun tell later model covette folks they have model T ford springs front and rear.

About the funniest thing I have done in a long time me and a friend
were at a covette dealer standing there talking to the salesman
right beside a C4 with the hood open I looked down said did
you know this car has henry ford transverse springs the look on his face was priceless

 

Nice looking engine they got rid of the injection system so it can get some air to it instead of the C5/C6 guys spending $8000.00 for a supercharger matching hood new paint because the fuel injection won't feed any air without boost help. What is that there a carb some form of modern technolgy thing.

 

The carb is is all about ease of installation in older cars, not making more power. Guys are making serious power (> 600HP) with FI normally aspirated....and out of fewer cubes. This technology vs. old skool thing ain't likely to get solved here

Regardless...that is some kinda nice piece of iron!

 

I don't recall saying a 330cc was streetable, can you point that out for me.

And my 427ci makes an easy 650HP as it is right now, I can drive it around like a normal car and it gets over 20mpg on the highway, someone should be pulling their heads out of something

One more thing, I actually have one of these that I built myself, not reading about dyno queens in the C5-C6 section

 

Its a nice engine but they will not make anymore power then a gen 1
with todays parts.

 

If it's not streetable, then what's your point? That a $9,000 pair of racing heads can just barely beat out a set of $900 STOCK TRUCK heads? Oh, but you're right - it can't possibly be better technology - it's just flow

Dyno sheet, please? And price? And since you built it yourself - willing to risk it against a GEN III/IV on the dyno? Same CID - whoever makes the most power takes 'em both.

I generally find that when someone loses an arguement, they a) change the subject and b) try to cast doubt on the other person. I've built almost 200 GEN I's - so I'm not short of experience. But nice to take a shot. I *knew* there was a reason you were on my <ignore> list - back you go

 

Sure it will - and for far less money. I know you disagree, and I respect your experience and expertise. IMHO the numbers just don't support your position in my experience.

 

If I'm on your "ignore" list then ignore me I would like that. And it must be nice to declare yourself the winner of an argument

Oh and say what you want, I'm not coming back to this thread it is so ridiculous

 

Well I considered the thought of building an LS style engine friend of mine has a 5.7 liter Z06 so I was curious to see what the airflow was on the heads was surprised when I checked into it the airflow was not anything like I thought they were it did not have the advantage that I thought it had and if I truely wanted a lot of power the GEN 1 just offered tremendous advantages in heads available to make power with. Block strength was no problem with aftermarket blocks or bowtie chevy GEN 1 anymore, with the really thick cylinders now available not the paper thin crap for poor ring seal the factory put out yrs ago, the oiling system improved with priorty main oiling main webs thicker more meat everwhere, steel caps, so I could see no real advantage to the LS block.The nice thin milimeter rings for less friction drag the LS engine had is now available at several companies mahle has 1.5 rings for cheap anything I would want is going to have forged pistons anyway. Back to the heads I was finding simple smaller runner 23 degree heads with just as much airflow or very close to the same depending on what someone wanted to spend for heads. I could just find no good reason to build one over a GEN 1 for a street engine and if more radical street power or race power is what someone wants the GEN 1 has every advantage a person could want in heads to make power with.

There is nowhere that the LS style engine in small cube form is competitive
not in dirt track cars, drag racing, road racing, or nascar, if it were so everyone of these forms of racing would be using them, there are just no heads available for them that will flow the air numbers that are readly available for the GEN 1

Anyway calling any pushrod two valve engine dating back to the 1800s stone age new technolgy then saying the GEN 1 is old tech this a laughable statement both engines are old technolgy, Chevy even used the same lousy 1955, 4.40 bore center for the LS engine.

Whats next if a shifter might shift a hair smoother in a new car its new
technolgy but the older cars shifter is OLD tech, friggen shifters date
back to the same late 1800s early 1900s as two valve pushrod engines.

But for spending money a BB can make more power with the most standard form of parts cheaper then you can build any form of small block that will stay together trying to make anywhere near the power it can.

 

The 453rwhp my brother-in-laws 2001 Z06 is laying down with just header, exhaust, cam, ported heads and intake is pretty damn impressive for a LS especially since it'd be hard to do the same with a Gen I for the money.

Fuel on the fire.

 

330cfm isn't the same all the way around...velocity comes into play here. I have a piece of sewer pipe that will flow over 500cfm but it sure isn't a good port.
What does it take to convert a conventional engine to Little Dukes? I know that on a big block, it's a ton of money beginning with bushed lifter bores, considerably more expensive valvetrain, yada yada. There are plenty of guys making 600+ hp with aluminum and iron LS blocks, ain't too many production small blocks that can handle that for any period of time.
If the "old style" smallblock hadn't needed to be modernized and if the GM engineers had been satisfied with that platform, the LS engine family would have never been born. I hope to be able to watch an 800hp+ solid roller LS427 on the dyno later this week, haven't seen too many smallblocks do that even with aftermarket everything. Other than the valvetrain/cam, this one is built with factory stuff.

 

Those are different platforms... parts are not interchangeable.

But I can see a 409 being called a "big block".

348/409 is generically different than the 366/396/427/454 family.

 

Whew - I wanted to call out these statements. I couldn't disagree more across the board.

For the stock LS6 heads, you consider 260 @.500 and/183cfm @ .650 to be unimpressive? Or the over 315 CFM intake from a set of STOCK TRUCK HEADS to be unimpressive? Sorry, I just don't get your perspective at all.

And the block - I guess I don't even know what to say. These stock blocks are holding 800+ HP, and the LSx was designed for 1200+...so I guess it really must be a "crap" block. Let me know when you're making 800 HP in a stock 350 block - especially one you pull out of a junkyard that's 60 years old

Gosh, I guess all those people putting high horsepower GEN III/IV into old chassis are nuts then. Why would they want 450 HP that idles smooth, gives great gas milage and still runs the A/C compressor? Bottom line is that a quick look through any current car magazine - or just what engines are going into the really hot builds these days - to see which way the wind is blowing.

Nowhere competetive? On what planet? Look at the LSx shootout times and tell me where they're not competetive. The challenge is racing rules that don't change very quickly...that's it. I'll say it again - any time someone wants to bring a GEN I out and put it against a GEN III/IV, same CID, then let's go.

And...again...no way - absolutely no way - will even a BBC make more power per dollar than an LSx. Period.

I guess this is turning into a beer rental return match, and that's not my intent. I encourage folks to look at rags like CarCraft, Hot Rod and GM High Tech Performance to learn more about what the LS engines are capable of.

 

I guess this is turning into a beer rental return match,

Never heard it said quite so politely

 

It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable

 

How could you forget the 327 ?? The coolest motor of them all

 

180 runner eliminator
.300 = 198
.400 = 240
.500 = 260
180 comp eliminator
.300 = 203
.400 = 247
.500 = 270

Just like I siad you can buy simple 23 degree heads for the GEN 1
that out flow the 5.7 liter, ZO6 head and flows way more then the
LS1 head, pretty sure a 180 runner is just a mild hydraulic cams 350 head.

truck head are you talking about the new big runner head.
wait a minute you seem to be saying you can't run big runner heads
on a GEN 1 its somehow not fare lol.

There is nothing but cubic inch limits in dirt track racing, drag racing,
road racing, the LS engines have been around now for a lot of yrs
NOBODY uses the LS engine it is simply not competitive in power
with the GEN 1 there is nothing but low runner factory style heads no form of raised runner heads it no canted valve stuff nothing yet available that can make it a competitive engine.

The block if you call world or dart they will tell you that just there standard steel cap blocks will handle 1200 hp.

Dart makes Compacted Graphite blocks that they claim has double the strength of there standard block i'm sure its expensive but at least its available there is no compacted graphite blocks for the LS the engine
is a SLUG not being used in racing not competitive.

A big block you can build so many cubes in it with just cheap iron heads
or the aluminum is not much more, by the time you get the kind of power out a punny small block of any type you will have a fortune in the engine and it will never be as reliable the punny engine will be winding silly rpms to even try to keep up.