Dart or World?
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Instructor
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: HOUSTON , TEXAS , USA
Dart or World?
Had just about settled on ordering the World Products S/R Torquers when I noticed from another post here the Dart Iron Eagles are on sale at Jeg's for about $140 off normal price for each head. Quite a bargain. These are the 180cc runners with 72cc chambers that I am looking at. I believe they have a more modern combustion chamber and good flow numbers. Any experiences, opinions, or advice. Good for a mild modified daily driver? True bolt on? Thanks in advance.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,211
Likes: 5
From: Nashville TN
Re: Dart or World? (CORKYVET)
I have the World Prodcuts Sportsman II's which are different than the S/R torquers. They are a setp down from the Sportsman heads. The S/R's are fine for a factory L-48 style cam, but are not the best should you decide to run a high lift cam. Go for the Dart Iron Eagles or the World Sportsman II.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 7,562
Likes: 9
From: B'Ville NY
Cruise-In III Veteran
St. Jude Donor '05
Re: Dart or World? (dman535)
Dart & World used to be the same company, they spilt & went to different companies now instead of being partners. I think both are probably very close to each other and you won't see much difference between the two. I have the Sportman II's and have been quite pleased with them.
I would think the Torquer would be fine for a mild motor. If Jegs has them on sale, I sale go with the Darts then :yesnod: .
I would think the Torquer would be fine for a mild motor. If Jegs has them on sale, I sale go with the Darts then :yesnod: .
Pro
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 534
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From: FL
Re: Dart or World? (SmokedTires)
Oops. Thanks for the update, Mike.
By the by, I think I saw a sale on heads at Speed-O-Motive as well... http://www.speedomotive.com
-Noel
By the by, I think I saw a sale on heads at Speed-O-Motive as well... http://www.speedomotive.com
-Noel
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,395
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From: Indiana
Re: Dart or World? (CORKYVET)
I'm running the S/R Torquers. If given the choice between the 72cc Iron Eagles and the 67cc Torquers, I'd still take the S/R torquers based only on the smaller chambers. Compression will make more of a difference in power on a fairly mild(300-400hp) engine than you will see from any supposed advantage in chamber design and flow numbers of the Iron Eagles. I am running TRW flatops and .015" steel shim gaskets. This has me at about 10:1 compression. What pistons do you have now and what compression ratio are you shooting for?
For what it's worth, the S/R design was intended to be a slightly better head than those used on the early LT-1's. Sure there are better heads on the market, but the S/R is still a much better head than anything the factory put on any of the C3s. With my particular combination that I am running now, I would prbably be better off with the Sporstman heads, but I am closing in on 300rwhp with these, and that's not too bad for a cheap iron head.
Tom
For what it's worth, the S/R design was intended to be a slightly better head than those used on the early LT-1's. Sure there are better heads on the market, but the S/R is still a much better head than anything the factory put on any of the C3s. With my particular combination that I am running now, I would prbably be better off with the Sporstman heads, but I am closing in on 300rwhp with these, and that's not too bad for a cheap iron head.
Tom
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Instructor
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From: HOUSTON , TEXAS , USA
Re: Dart or World? (tsw71)
tsw71
Can you still run premium at 10:1 iron heads? Anyway I have just installed mild cam (XE250-H) for more torque with stock pistons. I think 8:5 to 1. Time to order heads.
Can you still run premium at 10:1 iron heads? Anyway I have just installed mild cam (XE250-H) for more torque with stock pistons. I think 8:5 to 1. Time to order heads.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,395
Likes: 6
From: Indiana
Re: Dart or World? (CORKYVET)
tsw71
Can you still run premium at 10:1 iron heads? Anyway I have just installed mild cam (XE250-H) for more torque with stock pistons. I think 8:5 to 1. Time to order heads.
Can you still run premium at 10:1 iron heads? Anyway I have just installed mild cam (XE250-H) for more torque with stock pistons. I think 8:5 to 1. Time to order heads.
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Drifting
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,361
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From: Honolulu Hawaii
Re: Dart or World? (tsw71)
Excellent advice from the guys above. I am very pleased with my Sportsman IIs and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them with a slightly hotter build. Those Darts 180/72s sure look good at those prices at Jegs. They would be a great match to your setup. Go for it! Good luck with your build!
Pro
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 534
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From: FL
Re: Dart or World? (CORKYVET)
Can you still run premium at 10:1 iron heads?
I polished the combustion chambers to make for a slick surface and avoid carbon buildup. Also, I built the engine for near-zero deck height, so the quench area would work as well as it can.
During tuning I found I had to pull the part-throttle spark advance back quite a bit to avoid pinging, especially at the point where the torque really starts to come on.
Also, I run my engine very, very cool (like, 140 degrees cool).
I induct cold air, just above the radiator.
Last but not least, I run a rather aggressive cam so as not to build cylinder pressure at too low an RPM. That way, when the cylinder pressures get to detonationville the pistons are moving along pretty good.
-Noel
[Modified by Noel Carboni, 6:51 PM 2/18/2002]
Thread Starter
Instructor
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From: HOUSTON , TEXAS , USA
Re: Dart or World? (Noel Carboni)
tsw71
Do you think I could run the 67cc Torquer's with an .051" gasket. Like the one they use with the Corvette aluminum heads. In the Jim Pace catalog they state for iron or aluminum. I favor the Torquers because they have the heat crossover and I can keep the Quadrajet. I am a little afraid of cylinder pressure. I have zero deck height. Thanks for all the good information.
Do you think I could run the 67cc Torquer's with an .051" gasket. Like the one they use with the Corvette aluminum heads. In the Jim Pace catalog they state for iron or aluminum. I favor the Torquers because they have the heat crossover and I can keep the Quadrajet. I am a little afraid of cylinder pressure. I have zero deck height. Thanks for all the good information.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 5,877
Likes: 1
From: Park Ridge IL
Re: Dart or World?
I would recommend the Dart heads. The WP Torquer heads are a pretty old design that was intended to be an aftermarket replacement for the old Fuelie heads. They were good in their time, but certainly not up to date.
The Dart's on the other hand are near identicals to their aluminum heads, just cast iron. They feature high efficiency intake ports and high-swirl combustion chambers. Considering the similarity in price, the Dart's are the way to go in my opinion.
The Dart's on the other hand are near identicals to their aluminum heads, just cast iron. They feature high efficiency intake ports and high-swirl combustion chambers. Considering the similarity in price, the Dart's are the way to go in my opinion.
Pro
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 524
Likes: 59
From: watchung N.J.
Re: Dart or World? (dlw)
I bought a set of sportman IIs about 4mos ago and within 500 miles 8 of the
vavle spring dampers had broken into little pieces and were dancing around under my valve covers! I replaced all the "new" world springs and dampers with
comp. cams, at the tune of over $100.00, World sent me new spring and dampers but would not credit me for the comp. cam springs, what good would
replacing crap springs with crap replacements? Anyway alot of other forum members started checking and a lot found that they too had broken dampers!
If you buy World heads I would suggest you buy them bare and install your own parts ie:springs, valves etc. I am otherwise pleased with the heads as far as performance goes!
vavle spring dampers had broken into little pieces and were dancing around under my valve covers! I replaced all the "new" world springs and dampers with
comp. cams, at the tune of over $100.00, World sent me new spring and dampers but would not credit me for the comp. cam springs, what good would
replacing crap springs with crap replacements? Anyway alot of other forum members started checking and a lot found that they too had broken dampers!
If you buy World heads I would suggest you buy them bare and install your own parts ie:springs, valves etc. I am otherwise pleased with the heads as far as performance goes!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,721
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From: Canada
Re: Dart or World? (CORKYVET)
They have a price of $357.99. What a deal, would the 200 (72cc) be the best for my 72 sb. Haven't checked but I take it I need the one for angled plugs. Thanks for the post. :cheers:
[Modified by gdh, 9:42 PM 2/18/2002]
[Modified by gdh, 9:42 PM 2/18/2002]
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,395
Likes: 6
From: Indiana
Re: Dart or World? (CORKYVET)
tsw71
Do you think I could run the 67cc Torquer's with an .051" gasket. Like the one they use with the Corvette aluminum heads. In the Jim Pace catalog they state for iron or aluminum. I favor the Torquers because they have the heat crossover and I can keep the Quadrajet. I am a little afraid of cylinder pressure. I have zero deck height. Thanks for all the good information.
Do you think I could run the 67cc Torquer's with an .051" gasket. Like the one they use with the Corvette aluminum heads. In the Jim Pace catalog they state for iron or aluminum. I favor the Torquers because they have the heat crossover and I can keep the Quadrajet. I am a little afraid of cylinder pressure. I have zero deck height. Thanks for all the good information.
I was assuming that your shortblock was all original, but apparently it is not. The zero deck height will get you about 9.:5.1 with the Iron eagles using the .041" gasket and with the .051" gaskets and S/R's, about 9:8.1. As for the heat crossover, most people (including me) block it off. I assume you're worried about the choke. This is something that can be changed to work with whatever you get.
Given the fact that your zero deck height/cam combo will likely need lower compression , along with the problems that others have reported with the World dampers, I'd be inclined to go with the others on this one and recommend that you try the Iron Eagles, BUT I was just looking through Jegs, Summit, and several other sites and only Jegs offers the 180cc runner with the 72cc chamber. What seems strange is the fact that all other web sites seem to indicate that the 180cc version of the Iron Eagle is ONLY available in 64cc chamber. Only the larger runner Iron Eagle's have the choice of chamber size(64 or 72).Could the Jegs catalog be misprinted or are the others wrong?? :confused:
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: HOUSTON , TEXAS , USA
Re: Dart or World? (tsw71)
Let me confirm. I put a steel straight edge across block and piston at top dead center and both touched. This is zero deck height correct? Also numbers have been milled off casting. I did not realize compression would jump this much with decking.