List of Flat-Tappet Oils
04-12-2010, 10:43 AM
#221
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
"In terms of oil selection, we recommend oil with the proper level of “ZDDP”, Zinc Dialkyl Dithiosphosphate additive fortification. Recent market trends and misinformation have led to a new and adverse side effect known as “Overloading on ZDDP”. When overloading on ZDDP, the additive can actually cause blocking of other important additives, such as friction modifiers or detergent agents. It is imperative that the ZDDP level is carefully specified and blended to correct concentrations."
For me, this is a clear indication that ZDDP is still required and that additives are not. Everyone has to draw their own conclusions.
Last edited by billla; 04-12-2010 at 12:30 PM.
04-12-2010, 07:30 PM
#222
Received my test kit fromThe Oil Analysis Lab in Spokane, WA. Took awhile and I had to prepay. Throughly shook a quart of my newly acquired Penn Grade 1 10W/40 High Performance Oil and poured a sample in their kit as well as Blackstone's kit. Sent both off via UPS today. Tracking #'s are 1Z8326Y10392703238 & 1Z8326Y10393429042 for those who would like to follow along. Only regret I have is I didn't shake the Penn Grade 20W/50 Racing Oil before I sent it out for analysis but oil is now long gone.
John
John
04-12-2010, 08:21 PM
#223
After reading the oil viscosity paper by Dr. A.E. Haas (FerrariChat), it appears that for street engines the higher weight oils are poor choices.
Salient points are that 90% of engine wear occurs at start up, and much of start up protection has to do with oil being "thin enough" at ambient starting temperature. Thus the new "0" weight oils are "always" best. 0W-30 for example.
There is much more that can be said, but I am now reluctant to purchase Mobil1 15W50 despite the ready availability and excellent price at Walmart. It is too "thick" at any starting temperature.
Maybe Amsoil 10W40 is the best fit, since I don't see a readily available 5W or 0W on the list.
Salient points are that 90% of engine wear occurs at start up, and much of start up protection has to do with oil being "thin enough" at ambient starting temperature. Thus the new "0" weight oils are "always" best. 0W-30 for example.
There is much more that can be said, but I am now reluctant to purchase Mobil1 15W50 despite the ready availability and excellent price at Walmart. It is too "thick" at any starting temperature.
Maybe Amsoil 10W40 is the best fit, since I don't see a readily available 5W or 0W on the list.
04-12-2010, 09:30 PM
#224
Race Director
After reading the oil viscosity paper by Dr. A.E. Haas (FerrariChat), it appears that for street engines the higher weight oils are poor choices.
Salient points are that 90% of engine wear occurs at start up, and much of start up protection has to do with oil being "thin enough" at ambient starting temperature. Thus the new "0" weight oils are "always" best. 0W-30 for example.
There is much more that can be said, but I am now reluctant to purchase Mobil1 15W50 despite the ready availability and excellent price at Walmart. It is too "thick" at any starting temperature.
Maybe Amsoil 10W40 is the best fit, since I don't see a readily available 5W or 0W on the list.
Salient points are that 90% of engine wear occurs at start up, and much of start up protection has to do with oil being "thin enough" at ambient starting temperature. Thus the new "0" weight oils are "always" best. 0W-30 for example.
There is much more that can be said, but I am now reluctant to purchase Mobil1 15W50 despite the ready availability and excellent price at Walmart. It is too "thick" at any starting temperature.
Maybe Amsoil 10W40 is the best fit, since I don't see a readily available 5W or 0W on the list.
For a
to Jackson the Shell Rotella 5W-40 has tested well and is one of the oils Blackstone listed as consistantly showing high levels ( 1400) of Zinc.
04-12-2010, 09:36 PM
#225
If the Rotella 5W-40 meets the criteria, why is it not on the list?
04-12-2010, 10:42 PM
#226
Race Director
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...80#Post1234980
Here is a post from a few pages back. I haven't tested it or used it, just going off others results. I would still prefer the Amsoil AMO 10W-40. It is a group IV and V synthetic where this is a group III and their test results are solid and consistant, good company.
Good Evening,
MY EMAIL TO BLACKSTONE
Most of the oils you listed meet or exceed 1300 ppm but I only want to run oil that meets or exceeds 1500 ppm. To be more specific, I'm looking for oils that have a minimum content of Zinc 1500 ppm and close to 1500 ppm Phosphorus to use in my 1969 Corvette. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you,
John
BLACKSTONE’S EMAIL TO ME
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kristin Huff" <khuff@blackstone-labs.com>
To: "John Sebastian" <454rpw@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Report E07473 from Blackstone Laboratories
Mobil 1 MT Racing 4T 10W/40
Mobil 1 5W/40 TDD CI4
Mobil 1 MX4T 10W/40
Red Line 15W/40
Red Line 40W
Shell Rotella T 5W/40
Super Tech 15W/40
The oils Kristin listed above supposedly meet or exceed 1500 ppm zinc. They all are specified for Motorcycles or Diesel powered vehicles. And to top it off, there is an online Blackstone oil analysis dated 2007 on the Super Tech 15W/40. It lists Z @ 740 and P @ 651. You figure it out.
No one is going to find any oil formulated for cars where Z & P Exceeds 1300 ppm as found in Billlas’s Penn Grade 1 10W/30 oil analysis. I just haven’t seen it. Received my Penn Grade 1 10W/40 High Performance Oil today and already ordered a test kit from Oil Analysis. I also have a test kit from Blackstone. I’m going to have both labs test the same oil. It should be an interesting outcome. Analysis wise, if my Penn Grade 10W/40 matches the 10W/30 that Billla has or better, then I will use it. Will keep you posted.
Oil companies also supplement their oils with additives to compensate for the lack of Zinc & Phosphorus.
John
MY EMAIL TO BLACKSTONE
Most of the oils you listed meet or exceed 1300 ppm but I only want to run oil that meets or exceeds 1500 ppm. To be more specific, I'm looking for oils that have a minimum content of Zinc 1500 ppm and close to 1500 ppm Phosphorus to use in my 1969 Corvette. Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you,
John
BLACKSTONE’S EMAIL TO ME
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kristin Huff" <khuff@blackstone-labs.com>
To: "John Sebastian" <454rpw@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Report E07473 from Blackstone Laboratories
Mobil 1 MT Racing 4T 10W/40
Mobil 1 5W/40 TDD CI4
Mobil 1 MX4T 10W/40
Red Line 15W/40
Red Line 40W
Shell Rotella T 5W/40
Super Tech 15W/40
The oils Kristin listed above supposedly meet or exceed 1500 ppm zinc. They all are specified for Motorcycles or Diesel powered vehicles. And to top it off, there is an online Blackstone oil analysis dated 2007 on the Super Tech 15W/40. It lists Z @ 740 and P @ 651. You figure it out.
No one is going to find any oil formulated for cars where Z & P Exceeds 1300 ppm as found in Billlas’s Penn Grade 1 10W/30 oil analysis. I just haven’t seen it. Received my Penn Grade 1 10W/40 High Performance Oil today and already ordered a test kit from Oil Analysis. I also have a test kit from Blackstone. I’m going to have both labs test the same oil. It should be an interesting outcome. Analysis wise, if my Penn Grade 10W/40 matches the 10W/30 that Billla has or better, then I will use it. Will keep you posted.
Oil companies also supplement their oils with additives to compensate for the lack of Zinc & Phosphorus.
John
PS: the Super Tech was addressed a couple pages back. Walmart buys from cheapest sourse and has it put in their bottles, no consistancy = no good.
Last edited by 63mako; 04-12-2010 at 11:02 PM.
04-12-2010, 11:13 PM
#227
The 15W-40 has not tested well. The 5W-40 is a synthetic and I seen a recent test with almost 1400 PPM zinc on bobistheoilguy. Unfortunatly it is now deleted from the photobucket account. There is this test from 2008 CJ-4 SM rated, don't know how valid it is.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...80#Post1234980
Here is a post from a few pages back. I haven't tested it or used it, just going off others results. I would still prefer the Amsoil AMO 10W-40. It is a group IV and V synthetic where this is a group III and their test results are solid and consistant, good company.
You see Rotella T 5W-40 on the list. It also says "supposedly"
PS: the Super Tech was addressed a couple pages back. Walmart buys from cheapest sourse and has it put in their bottles, no consistancy = no good.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...80#Post1234980
Here is a post from a few pages back. I haven't tested it or used it, just going off others results. I would still prefer the Amsoil AMO 10W-40. It is a group IV and V synthetic where this is a group III and their test results are solid and consistant, good company.
You see Rotella T 5W-40 on the list. It also says "supposedly"
PS: the Super Tech was addressed a couple pages back. Walmart buys from cheapest sourse and has it put in their bottles, no consistancy = no good.
Royal Purple is also stocked at the big auto chains and it is available in a "thin" enough weight (5W30 and 0W40).
So for me I'm considering:
Amsoil 10W40
Rotella T 5W40
Mobil 1 5W40 TDD CI4
Royal Purple 0W40 or 5W30
If all of these can be relied on to have adequate ZDDP, it will come down to price and ease of finding/buying it. I know Amsoil 10W40 is about $9 a quart, and Royal purple is about $8 a quart.
Need to price the Mobil 1 5W40 TDD and Rotella T5W40 at Walmart or elsewhere. If they sell it in 4-5 quart containers it may be significantly cheaper.
edit:
Valvoline VR1 would meet all my criteria, the viscosity of the 10W-30 is ideal, it is widely available, reasonable priced, and is available as conventional and synthetic. I spoke with them by phone today and was assured that both conventional and synthetic varieties of VR1 have 1300-1400 ppm ZDDP as well as detergents and other desirable additives for street use. The only issue then becomes the "inconsistency" of reported VOA test results on BITOG. Not sure how reliable these few tests are relative to the (large/reputable) company's assurances.
Last edited by fwillison; 04-13-2010 at 10:54 AM. Reason: additional info
04-13-2010, 12:36 AM
#228
Team Owner
Member Since: Jul 2001
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St. Jude Donor '11, '16-'17
Good sticky thread at the Nova site. He sends oils to two different test labs and compares results.
http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums...ad.php?t=80715
http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums...ad.php?t=80715
04-14-2010, 12:08 AM
#229
Race Director
It has been asked many times "Who determined that 1200 PPM Zinc was the number needed"?
I have done a lot of research on this issue. Found it.
Do a google search on
1977 SAE technical paper “Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type.” This is the source of this info.
A few things you need to take into account though.
Ramp rates then were drasticly less than now, spring pressures were low and no solid lifters in production cars except for a few exotics. If you factor this in you should come to the conclusion that for a stock hydraulic flat tappet engine ( typical stock C3) 1200 PPM is the number to shoot for. Logic would then dictate for a modern fast ramp hydraulic flat tappet cam this needs to be higher. Increased spring pressure require higher zinc, high lift numbers would require more protection as would a solid flat tappet.
If your running a big solid flat tappet with fast ramps, high lift and big spring pressures you better find some big zinc numbers if you want to keep it together. Royal Purple XRP tests out at around 1900 PPM zinc and results are consistant. Use what you want but on this type of build these are the numbers I would look for.
I have done a lot of research on this issue. Found it.
Do a google search on
1977 SAE technical paper “Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type.” This is the source of this info.
A few things you need to take into account though.
Ramp rates then were drasticly less than now, spring pressures were low and no solid lifters in production cars except for a few exotics. If you factor this in you should come to the conclusion that for a stock hydraulic flat tappet engine ( typical stock C3) 1200 PPM is the number to shoot for. Logic would then dictate for a modern fast ramp hydraulic flat tappet cam this needs to be higher. Increased spring pressure require higher zinc, high lift numbers would require more protection as would a solid flat tappet.
If your running a big solid flat tappet with fast ramps, high lift and big spring pressures you better find some big zinc numbers if you want to keep it together. Royal Purple XRP tests out at around 1900 PPM zinc and results are consistant. Use what you want but on this type of build these are the numbers I would look for.
Last edited by 63mako; 04-14-2010 at 12:12 AM.
04-14-2010, 01:08 AM
#230
It has been asked many times "Who determined that 1200 PPM Zinc was the number needed"?
I have done a lot of research on this issue. Found it.
Do a google search on
1977 SAE technical paper “Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type.” This is the source of this info.
A few things you need to take into account though.
Ramp rates then were drasticly less than now, spring pressures were low and no solid lifters in production cars except for a few exotics. If you factor this in you should come to the conclusion that for a stock hydraulic flat tappet engine ( typical stock C3) 1200 PPM is the number to shoot for. Logic would then dictate for a modern fast ramp hydraulic flat tappet cam this needs to be higher. Increased spring pressure require higher zinc, high lift numbers would require more protection as would a solid flat tappet.
If your running a big solid flat tappet with fast ramps, high lift and big spring pressures you better find some big zinc numbers if you want to keep it together. Royal Purple XRP tests out at around 1900 PPM zinc and results are consistant. Use what you want but on this type of build these are the numbers I would look for.
I have done a lot of research on this issue. Found it.
Do a google search on
1977 SAE technical paper “Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type.” This is the source of this info.
A few things you need to take into account though.
Ramp rates then were drasticly less than now, spring pressures were low and no solid lifters in production cars except for a few exotics. If you factor this in you should come to the conclusion that for a stock hydraulic flat tappet engine ( typical stock C3) 1200 PPM is the number to shoot for. Logic would then dictate for a modern fast ramp hydraulic flat tappet cam this needs to be higher. Increased spring pressure require higher zinc, high lift numbers would require more protection as would a solid flat tappet.
If your running a big solid flat tappet with fast ramps, high lift and big spring pressures you better find some big zinc numbers if you want to keep it together. Royal Purple XRP tests out at around 1900 PPM zinc and results are consistant. Use what you want but on this type of build these are the numbers I would look for.
thanks
Fred
04-14-2010, 06:41 AM
#231
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Here is what is stated on Brad Penn's back label of their relatively new 10W-40 High Performance Oil. "Increase levels of zinc (zin diakyldithiophosphate) provide enhanced anti-wear/anti-scuffing protection for engines employing flat tappet type cams."
Further down it again states "Contains high zinc and phosphorus additive concentations which can be detrimental to cars and trucks with catalytic converters. Consult owners manual for proper oil selection."
Further down it again states "Contains high zinc and phosphorus additive concentations which can be detrimental to cars and trucks with catalytic converters. Consult owners manual for proper oil selection."
My suggestion would be to spend the $26 to test what you have.
04-14-2010, 06:47 AM
#232
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
As noted in the first post, the first issues occurred when the spec dropped below 1200 ppm. I have also recieved the 1200-1400 number from the cam manufacturers I contacted.
04-14-2010, 06:53 AM
#233
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
As Mako noted, ZDDP is essentially a pressure lubricant and high-performance cams use far higher spring pressures and far more aggressive ramps - near roller profiles in many cases. I agree there is a point of diminishing returns, and it's hard to draw cause-and-effect as these newer profiles and spring rates started appearing about the same time as the API/ILSAC spec changes...but again the cam manufacturers I contacted provided a range of 1200-1400 ppm ZDDP...so I identified a miniumum/maximum. Note that the racing oil vendors seems to be closer to the 1400-1500 range, while the street oil vendors seem to be closer to the 1200 range.
04-14-2010, 08:04 AM
#235
I'd like to see those numbers when you get 'em back.
I put Mobil 1 Turbo Truck Diesel 5W-40 in my car yesterday. The Mobil 1 product guide lists this oil as containing 1200 ppm zinc.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Mot...duct_Guide.pdf
It's on sale at Autozone. 5 quarts of any Mobil 1 synthetic oil plus a Mobil 1 oil filter all for $29.95!
I put Mobil 1 Turbo Truck Diesel 5W-40 in my car yesterday. The Mobil 1 product guide lists this oil as containing 1200 ppm zinc.
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Mot...duct_Guide.pdf
It's on sale at Autozone. 5 quarts of any Mobil 1 synthetic oil plus a Mobil 1 oil filter all for $29.95!
04-14-2010, 10:37 AM
#236
Fred, if you don't mind me asking, how does it "feel" ie. how is the oil pressure at start up now compared to previous viscosity?
With the 5W-40 now in how much do you have oil pressure at idle when cold and also when hot?
With the 5W-40 now in how much do you have oil pressure at idle when cold and also when hot?
04-14-2010, 12:22 PM
#238
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I'll own erring on the side of caution on virtually all aspects of this thread. I take an agnostic, conservative approach specifically because we're talking about someone's pride and joy here; if an oil doesn't meet the criteria...then the oil isn't included. There are enough good choices, I just don't see the need to spend a lot of time on the outer limits.
Last edited by billla; 04-14-2010 at 12:27 PM.
04-14-2010, 02:03 PM
#239
Safety Car
Member Since: Mar 2006
Location: Itasca IL
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2015 C2 of Year Finalist
It is fact that the engine oils available to the market throughout the 1950's and 1960's (when flat-tappet cams were the standard for engine design and muscle cars were brand new machines) only had approximately 0.08% wt. (800ppm) phosphorous. As everyone knows, the most recent SM spec limits phosphorous to between 600-800 ppm. While I agree SM oils are not suitable for HP flat tappet cam applications, I feel compelled to point out how small the ZDP content disparity actually is between new SM oils and the oils available when these cars were new.
That said, I have just recently switched from CJ-4 Chevron Delo 15W-40 (which DOES contain ~1200ppm phosphorous and ~1400ppm Zn) to AMSOIL AMO 10W-40 in my 67 big block. (I'm not much on cutting corners to save money in anything I do.)
The other "intangible" to us as consumers is the possible quality difference between an original flat-tappet cam manufactured in the 1960's and one made today.
04-14-2010, 02:23 PM
#240
The paper by Dr. Haas is very helpful. He explains that the lower winter weight oils will "flow" better, and since oil pressure is inversely proportional to oil flow, the pressure will be lower. This, however, is a good thing. Lubrication is a result of flow and not pressure. He explains that ideal viscosity for most engines would give a flow of about 10 cS. The ideal oil would flow 10 cS at cold start and 10 cS at operating temperature. No such oil exists. Even the thinnest 0 weight oil, eg. 0W-20 is still too thick at start up, around 30 cS. A 10W-30 oil (or any 30 wt oil) will generally give about 10 cS at operating temperature. 15 and 20 winter weights (eg. Mobil 1 15W-50 or Castrol 20W-50) are clearly to thick at start up, and this is where the great majority of engine wear occurs on a street motor.
Take home message is get a lower weight oil. OW-30 might be ideal for many applications.