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List of Flat-Tappet Oils

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Old 12-09-2009, 04:46 PM   #21
billla
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Rotella T notes that it meets BOTH CJ-4 AND SM (which is limited to 800 PPM ZDDP) - so I'm really not sold either way.

I'll send a note to Shell and see what happens - and mark Rotella as "provisional" for the moment.

All good discussion and thank you all! Hopefully this will collect all the stuff in one place to make this the *last* "What oil..." thread

Last edited by billla; 12-09-2009 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 12-09-2009, 05:20 PM   #22
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OK, I'm taking ths as definitive:

Dear Sir,

Rotella T does meet both API CJ-4 and API SM requirements and still has ~ 1200 ppm ZDDP . The reduction in ZDDP requirement is not an API specification, but an ILSAC GF 4 requirement.

Regards,

Shell Technical
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Old 12-09-2009, 05:30 PM   #23
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Thanks for the double checking to get the latest and correct info.
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Old 12-09-2009, 05:56 PM   #24
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I have been using Valvoline VR-1 dino, 10W-30, for 4+ years since my rebuild. Quite happy with it.
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Old 12-09-2009, 06:02 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackson View Post
The current diesel oil spec is CJ-4 is limited to 1,200 parts per million (ppm), so it does have 400 ppm more than API pass car oil but it’s only marginally better.
Limited to is the key phrase here. That would be CJ-4 has 1200 PPM maximium. 1200 PPM is a minimum requirement for flat tappet cams. A stock hydraulic flat tappet cam with low spring pressures might be ok at these levels and might not. If you have an upgraded cam, solid lifter cam, higher spring pressures because of your ramp rate and or lift, high RPM operation or high horsepower applications you need ZDDP and 1400 PPM is what I would look for. I am not an expert. Use what you want but CJ-4 does not meet the recommended minimum 1200 PPM ZDDP levels needed for flat tappet cam protection, it is close. Some of the other CJ-4 oils have 1000 to 1100 PPM and the manufacturers are recommending them for flat tappet engines. Guarantee if you wipe a lobe they will not be repairing your motor. If you change your oil and filter once a year the cost of a proven higher ZDDP oil and filter will run $20 to $40 a year extra. A wiped lobe will cost anywhere from $500 if you do the work yourself and have no other damage to well over $10,000 if you have a high performance build and have other damage as a result of the shrapnel and hire the work done. Small cost for piece of mind. Look at the royal purple description in the original post. Curious as to the actual ZDDP levels in the two listed and how they arrive at the use for each. Good thread.

Last edited by 63mako; 12-09-2009 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 12-09-2009, 06:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 63mako View Post
Some of the others have 1000 to 1100 PPM and the manufacturers are recommending them for flat tappet engines.
By "some of the others" do you mean the ones on the at the top of this thread. If so, which ones?

I agree that everyone needs to assess the value of their investment and make the right choices - even expen$ive oil is cheap over the long haul.
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Old 12-09-2009, 06:18 PM   #27
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Let me add one more thing to this discussion about the response I got when I called up the folks at Brad Penn.

They said, yes, the ZDDP level is very important but there's another factor that gets overlooked. And that's the 'stickiness' of the oil. I can't remember the exact term he used, but they have a way of measuring the 'stickiness' that very few others use in their analysis. One of the problems with some of the full synthetic oils is that it doesn't stay on the metal very long. So when your motor isn't running, a lot of that protection literally just slides off. So we all know how initial startup can be a major wear period....stickiness is important. Anywho, he was claiming that their 'stickiness' is some of the highest in the industry. Unfortunately I don't have any of their lab data to back this up but I can tell you that I've had builds that sat for close to a year and all the parts still had a coating of oil on them like they had just been splashed with fresh oil. The rep claimed that it was mostly the properties of their base stock oil that gave these results and why very few if any other oils exhibited this same behavior.

Being in the oil industry, I do know that Pennsylvania crude (where the base stock in Brad Penn comes from) is unique compared to oil produced from other reservoirs around the globe.

Just my $.02
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Old 12-09-2009, 06:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshort View Post
Let me add one more thing to this discussion about the response I got when I called up the folks at Brad Penn.

They said, yes, the ZDDP level is very important but there's another factor that gets overlooked. And that's the 'stickiness' of the oil. I can't remember the exact term he used, but they have a way of measuring the 'stickiness' that very few others use in their analysis. One of the problems with some of the full synthetic oils is that it doesn't stay on the metal very long. So when your motor isn't running, a lot of that protection literally just slides off. So we all know how initial startup can be a major wear period....stickiness is important. Anywho, he was claiming that their 'stickiness' is some of the highest in the industry. Unfortunately I don't have any of their lab data to back this up but I can tell you that I've had builds that sat for close to a year and all the parts still had a coating of oil on them like they had just been splashed with fresh oil. The rep claimed that it was mostly the properties of their base stock oil that gave these results and why very few if any other oils exhibited this same behavior.

Being in the oil industry, I do know that Pennsylvania crude (where the base stock in Brad Penn comes from) is unique compared to oil produced from other reservoirs around the globe.

Just my $.02
Yeah it's GREEN !

Personally the closer to 1400ppm ZDDP the better I would not run 1200 IMHO especially on a flat tappet cam
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Old 12-09-2009, 06:25 PM   #29
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Yay, I love oil threads!

OK, I own a diesel and put Shell Rotalla in it. Because I don't believe anything an oil company tells me I have my oil tested by Blackstone. The report below shows oil that has run about 3000 miles on my truck from 3 different oil changes. I run the 15W40. So you can take what you want from the numbers. For those of you that are nervous about using a particular type of oil you can have it tested before you use it for about 20 bucks. That 20 bucks goes a long way in knowing what exactly you are putting in your engine.

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Next on the reports is from my break-in on my 1969 350/350 using Joe Gibbs Break-in Oil and Comp Cams additive. Take what you want from the reports.



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Old 12-09-2009, 09:59 PM   #30
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This is a great discussion! I still stick to the 1,200 PPM ZDDP for a typical street/stock flat tappet cam engine. I think that there is some validity for higher levels for engines that run higher spring pressures. I do not buy the old baloney that true synthetics don't stay on the internal parts to the some degree as dino oil and your engine will suffer premature wear-I guess that is why many of the newer high performance engines-such as Porschess and Corvette Z06/ZR1's/base corvettes, etc-use a true synthetic form the FACTORY! I also don't buy into one bit this whole diesel oil phenomenon being superior to conventional/synthetic gas oils-where the heck to that nonsense come from? Diesel oils are formulated for Diesel engines and Gas oils are formulated for gas engines-This isn't hard, is it?
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Old 12-09-2009, 10:20 PM   #31
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Couple of questions:

Is Amsoil sold in regular auto parts stores?

Would oil with greater than 10W-- on the lower end of the viscosity range (like the 20W50) be bad for wear at engine start-up in older engines like we have?
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:17 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Vette View Post
Couple of questions:

Is Amsoil sold in regular auto parts stores?

Would oil with greater than 10W-- on the lower end of the viscosity range (like the 20W50) be bad for wear at engine start-up in older engines like we have?
Amsoil is sold by distributors. They are everywhere. Check their website for the closest to you. 10W multigrade oils provide better cold start protection than a 15W or 20W multograde. This is when the most wear occurs (up to 90%). Synthetics flow much more freely when cold than dino oil with the same viscocity rating. By cold I am not talking about 0 but at ambient temperature at startup. It gets circulating and to the moving parts faster at startup giving much better cold start protection. There are extensive ASTM test results here:
http://lshim.com/comparison.htm
The racing oils do have lower levels of certain additives that extend drain intervals and detergents that reduce sludge. The diesel oil have additives that gasoline engines don't need and high amounts of detergent that can reduce the effectivness of ZDDP. A lot of the S rated oils with enough ZDDP are also thicker than the recommended weight these engines require especially fresh builds with better clearances. If this concerns you do your research like Billa says. The Blackstone oil analysis is a great $20 to spend if you have any question or doubt. Bobistheoilguy.com has all the info you could ever need on any question you have on oil.

Last edited by 63mako; 12-10-2009 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:09 AM   #33
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I would think Joe Gibbs Hot Rod oil should be on the list, it is a street engine oil with the proper detergents for long life. Link: http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/hotrod/index.html
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:01 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 63mako View Post
Current Syntec 20W-50 (for classic cars) is actually a modern premium quality API SM product that has been Zinc boosted to Zinc levels that are reminiscent of levels from historic API categories such as SG when flat tappet cams with high spring loads were common in the fleet. For reference, note that the API SM category has the most rigorous passenger car engine oil (PCO) test performance requirements in the history of the API PCO categories.

The level of Zinc in the new Syntec 20W-50 is a minimum of 1200 ppm, which will provide excellent anti-wear protection for the cam and lifters in a flat-tappet cam engine.



Thank you again for contacting Castrol, we appreciate you patronage!

Castrol Consumer Relations
Thank you, Sir. Still sorting through the Amsoil stuff but I'll get it updated this weekend.
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:04 AM   #35
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Folks, I'm digging through all of the responses and data and working to get all this stuff into the main post.

It kinda sucks, but I have to use my judgement here a bit on what's validation of ZDDP levels. Bear with me while I sort it out.

If you think this should be a sticky, let the mods know.
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:14 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Ward View Post
Thanks for the double checking to get the latest and correct info.
It's sure been an interesting learning curve for me!
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Old 12-11-2009, 06:57 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billla View Post
I need a source for the zinc content - they make no claim on their website to be specifically for flat-tappet cams and they appear to be SM - which means no more than 800 PPM ZDDP. Their single-weight racing oils have over 2200 PPM.
here is a few links to redline multiweight oil analysis reports
0w30
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...33#Post1570933


ow20
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...56#Post1630856

redline break in additive
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...86#Post1199486

10w40
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...13#Post1539713

5w40
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...11#Post1465711

5w20
http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/mesasto..._AN_(2=07).pdf


5w30
this one is down a little in P
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...37#Post1314937
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Zell View Post
I agree ! I have a new roller to prove it.

Old Rotella Good

New Rotella Bad
What did you spend on your build? Is it numbers matching? Are you running an aftermarket cam? Proper break in oils and gasoline engine oils are available that are specifically engineered to protect your engine design. I just don't understand why anyone would have a $4000 to $10000 engine and use an oil not engineered for it in it when it is only $20 or $30 a year at the most difference for the oil that is correctly, specificly engineered for it that has the correct weight and additives??????
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Old 12-12-2009, 07:01 PM   #39
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Costco sells Mobile 1, but not sure of the grade
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Old 12-12-2009, 09:56 PM   #40
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Collectors Choice oil has 2000 zddp.

http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/p...0-815_INST.pdf
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