Oil leaking after Oil change , used synthetic 10w30
11-29-2014, 12:52 PM
#41
Race Director
All synthetics are NOT created equal. Amsoil Zrod 10W-30 is a true Group IV synthetic with seal sweller additives and anti corrosion additives. For older engines driven low miles and stored a lot this has the best of both worlds and correct ZDDP levels for aggressive flat tappet cams. This has an additive package and base stock custom designed for this specific application. If an extra $20-30 a year is a deal breaker for you to provide maximum protection, reduced wear and proven extended engine life expectancy you need a new hobby.
11-30-2014, 04:49 AM
#42
Instructor
not sure if you can get it in the US, Penrite HPR-50 (40W-70). Write up is:
Penrite 40W-70 is ideal for large capacity petrol, diesel and kerosene engines in classic vehicles that originally used SAE50, and suffer from excessive oil consumption.
Penrite 40W-70 Engine Oil is a premium mineral, SAE40-70, high zinc, low detergent engine oil designed specifically for petrol and diesel fuelled vehicles manufactured between 1950 and 1989. Featuring a double layer of engine wear protection with high zinc and increased operating temperature viscosity.
Penrite 40W-70 is ideal for large capacity petrol, diesel and kerosene engines in classic vehicles that originally used SAE50, and suffer from excessive oil consumption.
Penrite 40W-70 Engine Oil is a premium mineral, SAE40-70, high zinc, low detergent engine oil designed specifically for petrol and diesel fuelled vehicles manufactured between 1950 and 1989. Featuring a double layer of engine wear protection with high zinc and increased operating temperature viscosity.
11-30-2014, 09:31 AM
#43
Race Director
not sure if you can get it in the US, Penrite HPR-50 (40W-70). Write up is:
Penrite 40W-70 is ideal for large capacity petrol, diesel and kerosene engines in classic vehicles that originally used SAE50, and suffer from excessive oil consumption.
Penrite 40W-70 Engine Oil is a premium mineral, SAE40-70, high zinc, low detergent engine oil designed specifically for petrol and diesel fuelled vehicles manufactured between 1950 and 1989. Featuring a double layer of engine wear protection with high zinc and increased operating temperature viscosity.
Penrite 40W-70 is ideal for large capacity petrol, diesel and kerosene engines in classic vehicles that originally used SAE50, and suffer from excessive oil consumption.
Penrite 40W-70 Engine Oil is a premium mineral, SAE40-70, high zinc, low detergent engine oil designed specifically for petrol and diesel fuelled vehicles manufactured between 1950 and 1989. Featuring a double layer of engine wear protection with high zinc and increased operating temperature viscosity.
11-30-2014, 04:28 PM
#44
Instructor
Penrite label their oils in a strange way due to the what they call "extra 10", the 40W-70 is their version of 25W-60. Ambient Temperature range where I live is 50F to 120F over the year
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pd...NOV%202014.pdf
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pd...NOV%202014.pdf
11-30-2014, 10:10 PM
#45
Race Director
40W-70 is 40W-70. The link has incorrect information. Thicker oil has numerous drawbacks. To numerous to list them all here. Here are a few. Worse fuel mileage. 90% of wear occurs at startup. Thinner oil gets to where it is needed much faster at start up than thicker oil. Oil cools internals, more flow = cooler internals. Thicker oil cost horsepower. Thicker oil loads the cam/dist gear harder causing accelerated wear. Anything over 10 PSI per 1000 RPM is more than you need. Once you hit the pressure of your bypass spring you no longer filter the oil. That thick of oil will never run through the filter media you will be in bypass all the time.
12-01-2014, 03:51 PM
#46
Drifting
Ever since I joined the Mobil-1 cam donation club at 30K miles I just can't bring myself to use Mobil-1 again. Replaced the wiped Crane cam with the same Crane grind. I've been using Rotella-T with added ZDDP for the past 100K miles and everything is just fine with no leaks.
12-01-2014, 05:44 PM
#47
Le Mans Master
Ever since I joined the Mobil-1 cam donation club at 30K miles I just can't bring myself to use Mobil-1 again. Replaced the wiped Crane cam with the same Crane grind. I've been using Rotella-T with added ZDDP for the past 100K miles and everything is just fine with no leaks.
12-01-2014, 07:18 PM
#48
Pro
My company builds oil purifiers for large machines, gas turbines and large compressors. This information is absolutely correct.
I once asked a friend who works for Lubrizol about which oil he uses in his car. He said Mobil One. I said how about the other oils. He replied, look I have been designing oil and additives for 28 years. I use Mobil one. You should be using it.
It is fantastic oil with properties that far exceed mineral oils.
On a second issue, oil companies change their oil all the time without admitting there is something different about the oil. Some mineral oils used in large machines used to be group 1 oils. They were changed to group 2 oils and the trade name stayed the same. Turbines began to show varnish problems. Wrong additives were put in these oils, but the name remained the same. New additives were put in the oil and still no change. There is no way to be sure about oil additives and oil design, because the oil companies constantly change the design, but say it is the same old oil you love.
I use Mobile One, You should use it.
I once asked a friend who works for Lubrizol about which oil he uses in his car. He said Mobil One. I said how about the other oils. He replied, look I have been designing oil and additives for 28 years. I use Mobil one. You should be using it.
It is fantastic oil with properties that far exceed mineral oils.
On a second issue, oil companies change their oil all the time without admitting there is something different about the oil. Some mineral oils used in large machines used to be group 1 oils. They were changed to group 2 oils and the trade name stayed the same. Turbines began to show varnish problems. Wrong additives were put in these oils, but the name remained the same. New additives were put in the oil and still no change. There is no way to be sure about oil additives and oil design, because the oil companies constantly change the design, but say it is the same old oil you love.
I use Mobile One, You should use it.
12-01-2014, 07:24 PM
#49
Pro
All synthetics are NOT created equal. Amsoil Zrod 10W-30 is a true Group IV synthetic with seal sweller additives and anti corrosion additives. For older engines driven low miles and stored a lot this has the best of both worlds and correct ZDDP levels for aggressive flat tappet cams. This has an additive package and base stock custom designed for this specific application. If an extra $20-30 a year is a deal breaker for you to provide maximum protection, reduced wear and proven extended engine life expectancy you need a new hobby.
12-01-2014, 07:24 PM
#50
Le Mans Master
Well, there is one minor error. The PAO and esters are different molecules so therefore not the same size. But it's true that these two molecules are resistant to fracture and therefore stay in spec viscosity wise. I like Mobil 1 a lot but think Amsoil has the slight advantage, they often edge out Mobil 1 in independent lab tests.
12-01-2014, 07:29 PM
#51
Pro
Ever since I joined the Mobil-1 cam donation club at 30K miles I just can't bring myself to use Mobil-1 again. Replaced the wiped Crane cam with the same Crane grind. I've been using Rotella-T with added ZDDP for the past 100K miles and everything is just fine with no leaks.
12-01-2014, 07:36 PM
#52
Race Director
I agree! For clarification the esters cause seal expansion and the PAO cause seal shrinkage, therefore the proper ratio is critical. I'm not sure zinc additive is necessary because it was added to dino oil to compensate for the failure of the oil to maintain film thickness due to fracturing of the molecules. As synthetics are very resistant to fracturing, the zinc additive may just be for marketing purposes.
Last edited by 63mako; 12-01-2014 at 07:38 PM.
12-01-2014, 07:40 PM
#53
Pro
Why do they like Rotella? Most of these diesel oils have high TBN numbers to keep soot in suspension, not needed for gas engines. Are they after the zinc? Most people I have talked to don't know the difference between an aliphatic and an aromatic hydrocarbon, and therefore shouldn't have an opinion. They should listen to the advice of people who know a lot more than they do.
12-01-2014, 07:50 PM
#54
Pro
Any oil no matter the base stock will "shear" in even a Low rpm, stock flat tappet application. Increase spring pressure, Ramp rate, lift and RPM it will pyramid. ZDDP deposits a phosphorous film on the highly loaded contact points when sheared. It is the last line of defense from metal to metal contact once the oil shears. It is in EVERY automotive engine oil sold. Modern oils that are SM/SN rated limit it to 800 PPM but I have not ever seen a VOA with levels below 600 PPM. Performance engines need more, it is used up faster when parts are loaded more. European formulas are higher, 1000 PPM or higher is typical and speced on Porche, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Lamborghini ect even if sold in US.
Some of these tried and true additives (sulphated ash, phosphorus etc) are being phased out due to interference with modern pollution control devices and there are no replacements that are proven to be effective. It's a big problem....
12-01-2014, 08:29 PM
#55
Le Mans Master
Why do they like Rotella? Most of these diesel oils have high TBN numbers to keep soot in suspension, not needed for gas engines. Are they after the zinc? Most people I have talked to don't know the difference between an aliphatic and an aromatic hydrocarbon, and therefore shouldn't have an opinion. They should listen to the advice of people who know a lot more than they do.
1. Diesel oil is "heavy duty" since it is used in diesel engines-good for a diesel, has to be good oil for a gas engine.
2. Older diesel oils did have high ZDDP levels at one time-NO LONGER TRUE-still clinging to the believe that 1995 Shell Rotella is the same Shell Rotella in 2014 in terms of ZDDP levels….As you stated earlier, oil companies change their formulations constantly.
3. Reference such and such a vehicle that has used a diesel oil-usually Shell Rotella- for 100,000 miles and all is good so…..diesel oil has to be just as good as a gas oil especially a synthetic gas oil if the engine lasted 100,000 miles with diesel oil that costs 25% less than the leading synthetic..
The giant blind spot in this whole argument was also nailed by you: The most dangerous aspect of this issue is those that don't know the difference between scientific proven fact versus an opinion….
12-01-2014, 08:49 PM
#56
Pro
You hit the nail on the head! From what I can gather from discussions on this issue for years now, most of these diesel oil supporters don't have a clue about chemistry but base most of their support of diesel oil on 3 concepts:
1. Diesel oil is "heavy duty" since it is used in diesel engines-good for a diesel, has to be good oil for a gas engine.
2. Older diesel oils did have high ZDDP levels at one time-NO LONGER TRUE-still clinging to the believe that 1995 Shell Rotella is the same Shell Rotella in 2014 in terms of ZDDP levels….As you stated earlier, oil companies change their formulations constantly.
3. Reference such and such a vehicle that has used a diesel oil-usually Shell Rotella- for 100,000 miles and all is good so…..diesel oil has to be just as good as a gas oil especially a synthetic gas oil if the engine lasted 100,000 miles with diesel oil that costs 25% less than the leading synthetic..
The giant blind spot in this whole argument was also nailed by you: The most dangerous aspect of this issue is those that don't know the difference between scientific proven fact versus an opinion….
1. Diesel oil is "heavy duty" since it is used in diesel engines-good for a diesel, has to be good oil for a gas engine.
2. Older diesel oils did have high ZDDP levels at one time-NO LONGER TRUE-still clinging to the believe that 1995 Shell Rotella is the same Shell Rotella in 2014 in terms of ZDDP levels….As you stated earlier, oil companies change their formulations constantly.
3. Reference such and such a vehicle that has used a diesel oil-usually Shell Rotella- for 100,000 miles and all is good so…..diesel oil has to be just as good as a gas oil especially a synthetic gas oil if the engine lasted 100,000 miles with diesel oil that costs 25% less than the leading synthetic..
The giant blind spot in this whole argument was also nailed by you: The most dangerous aspect of this issue is those that don't know the difference between scientific proven fact versus an opinion….
12-03-2014, 01:20 AM
#57
Race Director
Interesting, I haven't studied much about ZDDP. I'll stipulate there is shear of synthetic base stock, but is it significant, ie enough to lose the film and have metal to metal contact? And when you say ZDDP is used up, what are the components it breaks into? Do they precipitate out? Finally are there controlled studies that prove ZDDP increases the life of components over a quality synthetic without high ZDDP levels?
Some of these tried and true additives (sulphated ash, phosphorus etc) are being phased out due to interference with modern pollution control devices and there are no replacements that are proven to be effective. It's a big problem....
Some of these tried and true additives (sulphated ash, phosphorus etc) are being phased out due to interference with modern pollution control devices and there are no replacements that are proven to be effective. It's a big problem....
Last edited by 63mako; 12-03-2014 at 01:22 AM.
12-03-2014, 01:35 PM
#58
Pro
ZDDP is a molecule, When it is sheared by extreme heat and pressure it breaks down into zinc (carrier) and the phosphorous is bonded to the high pressure contact point that sheared it creating a "sacrificial layer" that wears off and is redeposited as needed using up the ZDDP over time. Higher loading and high HP RPM use it faster. If you look at 540rat's oil sticky it is a test of the film strength of various oils at 230 degrees. The true synthetics generally test higher but the maximum he sees is 115,000 PSI before film strength failure. The loading at the lifter/cam interface on a stock, low spring pressure flat tappet will exceed 200,000 psi. The sludge you used to see in older engines was mostly the zinc and phosphorous precipitating out. Those oils were low in detergents/dispersants which will keep it in suspension and allow the filter to remove it. Modern oils have reduced ZDDP, roller cams don't convert near as much ZDDP to sheared state and higher detergent/ dispersants so when you pop the valvecover now you see little to no sludge. When GM had a rash of cam failures in the 70's they started using a process called Parkerizing. It was a process that electrochemically bonded phosphorous to the cam. It allowed the cam to break in easily and reduce long term wear.
12-03-2014, 02:55 PM
#59
12-03-2014, 03:55 PM
#60
Pro