So now we swapped to seats? I think MErc seats are comfortable and the interior is very good quality. SLK 230 Kompressor... very very nice car to drive..seats are delicous..

As said.. it's all a matter of personal opinion!

Marck


[Modified by Twinnie, 3:51 PM 4/17/2002]

 

Yes, compared to cars of their vintage the c3's do handle very, very well. I think that even compared to todays cars they hold their own.

I was up in the rocky mountains with my 75 Vette. my Friend was in his 91 or 92 BMW 325is ( I believe the "s" is a suspension upgrade) I roasted that car on the twisties. He kept for a small bit but I was gone and he wasn't catching me. Now I do realize that the 325is is a 2.5l inline 6, but its also ALOT newer and more expensive than my car. I left him with no chance to catch me. My car is basically stock too (rear gears and strut rods).

I must say that the 325 doesn't handle as well as a much older 535 and that may be due to the 3.5l inline 6's power difference. But still the 535 did not have anything on me. Don't say its driver either, the guy driving the BMW went to Sears point and took a mechanic/racing program and knows how to drive.

The Vette has great 11+" rotors w/4 piston calipers at all 4 corners so stopping isn't a problem, and neither is brake fade. It has 49/51 or 51/49 weight distribution so thats about as perfect as it gets. when you start getting these older vettes to their handling limits they are very responsive and all 4 wheels start to drift at the same time. Very easy to drive at its limits and very very predictable. Never understeers and I feel as though it always has some left to give.

Dont' get me wrong newer cars can and do handle better, but not all. Corvettes have been using independant rear for quite some time (63?). Ford Cobras just started using it a few years ago because they finally realized what kind of advantage it has for road cars. Sorry for the long post :cheers:

 

Oh and just to compare prices here.. a new 1500 Silverado will set you back a good 40K, a SLK kompressor about 45 - 50K.

Prices are insane here, a C5 will start at 85K roughly...that's the reason not many are around here.

On a new car there is a 47,8% tax and then some additional costs for environment related issues..and so on.. and so on. Roughly 55-60% of the money you spend goes to the government :( Did I mention gas prices are up to 4$ a gallon here??...

Marck :cry

 

Hey Twinnie - just thought I'd 'jump' in on the action ! :jester
You're opinion is 'twisted' - not wrong - just 'twisted'....
Have you ever rode in a completely original, low-mileage C3 with power brakes ? - I have ....a 1971 out of my price range. The salesman took me on a back road with lots of bumps, chugholes, etc. - That thing handled beautifully..... Yes Mark, the C3 handled beautifully and stopped good too, might I add ?
I happen to own a Mercedes C-230 coupe (wifes car) and have driven bimmers (BMW) - They're all good.... but tell me - what cars from the sixties & seventies can out perform a vette ? - I'm waiting ?!? :p: :p: :p:

Even restored Corvettes (unless properly done) sometimes aren't setup like the factory & worn parts are 'misleading' in that people think all 'old' vettes drive like trucks..... My suggestion ? - Re-do your suspension ! :chevy
That's my 3 1/2 cents for what it's worth.... :cool:

 

They have a VR rated tire by Pirelli on tirerack.com -- 255/60VR-15

Yer good up too 149

 

We must be insane driving a Corvette overhere Marck...... ;)

And yes,compared to STOCK European cars,MOST American cars don't handle very well.I have owned Camaro's,Firebirds,Caprices,Nova's,Malib u and some more American cars,and specially the big sedans can not be compared to a Mercedes or BMW,not a new one,and not from the same year.

My 1982 Corvette however,feels and drives ver well,compared to alot European cars.Once you are used to the way a American car handles,you can take corners almost as fast as a European car.(keyword here is almost......)

If,however,I had to choose between a BMW or a American car,I wouldn't pick the Bimmer.....far to many around here to be fun!

I rather have a American car.

(and yes,I'm known in my family to be strange :crazy: :crazy: :lol: )

 

Twinnie, some say seats are a part of handling, I don't much agree with that, but that's the comments I hear, I never felt that 'sports car seats' like in the earlier C4's were very comfortable....too narrow, can't relax....
pardon ME but I like a seat like the 70's Cadillacs....wide plush, and infinately adjustable...
however back to handling....I feel a C3 can keep up with just about anything in cornering....up to a price that is....I think one would have to spend about 150 grand to seriously beat it, however....and that statement is based on the car itself, not the OEM type tires....For instance I have '92 vette wheels and 255/50/17 up front and 275/50/17 in rear tires....Nitto....I feel the car is capable of keep up and blowing many 'super cars' off the road....
now can I ME, PERSONALLY drive it to the limits??? NO!!!!

but at 150 mph over an irregular bridge near me, the thing digs in takes off and stick to the road like glue....car is capable of much more than I can do with it....even in an autocross situation, which I have tried enough to know I"m no good at it....
I"m a machinery type of guy, not a driver.....;-)))

BTW, I"m dead serious in my statement about BMW and Merc seating....
about as ridgid and uncomfortable as a park bench...

my butt is what the seat should conform to, NOT the other way around...

now Volvo on the other hand, had NICE comfortable seating, really NICE....
too bad the rest of the car wasn't as nice....too boxy, no power, lack of style...and of course the nerdy image....but the seats are good as a lounge chair....;-)))

 

will a monoleaf spring help?

PS: mercedes benz seats are supportive not hard :lol: (seriously though, they feel very nice)

 

1970 LT-1 vs 1970 911 - Motor Trend, May 1970



Read the part about handling. The rest of the article is on my site. :yesnod:

 

I agree on the seats.. I'm swapping them for a set of racing seats.

As for the suspension, I think the discussion could be endless.. I feel the C3 steering is inresponsive and the rear suspension clumsy and not very good at all. I'm changing about everything but that's probably just me.. I'm probable twisted.. I've heard people say more than once that I'm sort of a nutcase :D oh well..

I also feel the C3 brakes are poor..if you have never had fading I don't think you have driven it hard enough.. try a few laps on the circuit or a good 130+ mph pass on the german autobahn...then brake and try to catch the next gas station.. chences are you WILL miss it.

I've had my suspension set up properly, everything has been rebuilt on my car.. yet it's in pieces now because I'm changing it. I had all new rubber bushings and it still was a little sloppy at best. I now have polybushings but may ditch that too and install a C4 susp. on front & rear, along w/ R&P steering. I think the recirculating ball system spoils a lot of the steering quality.

My C3 is a low mileage 82 (33K miles) w/ power everything.. it's nice to drive, don't get me wrong and I'm not selling it ever..but again, my opinion is the steering is sloppy, the brakes and the IRS too.

What cars of the 60's & 70's can outperform the vette? Dunno man, I was too young to drive then ;) :D

Redo my suspension? Doing that... 2rd attempt ;) :D

I'll get this thing to drive like I want it, even if I have to do some more weeks on water and bread...

Marck

 

Actually this is kind of funny :D Everyone is coming up w/ ëvidence"of the Corvettes good handling characteristics...

No use in trying to convert or brainwash me hahaha :D

Like the articles tho, superfast... keep ém coming :D

Marck

 

Hi,

Over the years I have owned a good few American cars. I had an 80 4spd Vette and sold a 79 Trans-Am to buy it. At the same time my brother in law had an 81 Tran-Am Which I had previousely owned and sold to him to by the 79. The Vette could could not handle the curves the way the T/A`s could. We went out together a lot and my vette could not keep up. There was nothing wrong with it, this was in the late 80`s so neither car was all that old and my 80 only had about 50K miles on it.

I have had this 81 for a few years now and a couple of summers ago I had a 91 Z28 convertible so drove both cars often and again the Z28 was imho a better handling car. Where the Vettes scored was on traction of the line, they just dig in and go where as the F-Body`s with their solid axles would be more prone to spinning the wheels if you gave them to much gas.

One car that sticks in my memory was another 79 T/A I owned which had the WS6 suspension package and it would see of any Vette around the corners, the only minor problem was that the suspension was so hard it would shake your fillings right out of your teeth and was seriously uncomfortable.

To touch on the Euro vs US thing a bit without upsetting anyone, one of the things that was said about cars that were exported to the US was that many had revised suspension and steering set-up`s to make them more palitable for the US buyers who expected a softer ride than what would be acceptible over here, also tyres were different as well. At one time Jaguar cars were critisized a lot for having very soft suspension and steeering that was to light but as around 75% of production ended up in the US this was not addressed until recently. In the 70`s and early 80`s most American cars still had fairly primative suspension set-up compaired to their European equivalents and this has had a lasting legacy over here. You have big wide highways and gentle curves. In Holland you have to drive on narrow roads that were dykes and if you miss a turn the only place to to go is into a cannal. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and wrecked a company Merc panal van in the process !!! probably something to do with them driving on the wrong side of the road. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Lastly givin the sort of performance that you could get in some C3 Vettes the brakes are terrible, I have replaced the seals in mine three times in as many years and they have the stainless sleeves as well. I`m surprised that GM got away with it for so long. Even when the are working and leak free they are no great shakes.

J.

 

Dont get me wrong Twinnie, you are not far off the mark. All sorts of american made cars including camaros, firebirds etc..etc.. have very plain handling characteristics. And I agree that the steering feedback (or response) of a power steering equipped vette is not that far from that of a caddilac.

Keep in mind an '82 was the absolute pinnacle of luxury in a c3, everything about it was for plush comfortable ride, it very much held its own with other 1982 vintage cars, but is not that same as a 69 or 70 in handling..the spring rates are different..the durometer of the bushings is different, the car is heavier and I believe the wt distribution is different.

No one on the forum I think will argue for the outstanding quality of the brakes on C3's - evident by the endless parade of people who can'y get the air out of their systems. But a C3 is not a match for any modern vehicle with ABS (which has been around for how many years now?) and carbon fibre pads.

Its a classic case of apples and oranges.

BTW I agree with you - the seats in a merc are just fine :lol:

Not trying to convince you otherwise - keep your opinion and voice it as often as you like, its one of the few things you can call your own.

Obviously you like the vette enough :smash:


[Modified by fauxrs, 6:53 PM 4/17/2002]

 

From my experience there is a BIG difference in the handling ability of FE-7 cars and base suspension cars. My 1980 with Gymkhana is MUCH better through the twisties than my 1976 with base set up.

I bet an F-41 BB car or an FE-7 SB car would have been a different story for you John. I know my car has run with many C4s through the twisties with ease.

 

I have to agree with Superfast on this, as I stated in my original post. My 79 has the base suspension, and while it does have a lot of body roll, it still handles fairly well. However, I'm sure it would be much better with the Gymkhana suspension (FE-7).

 

My 69 had the best brakes of any car I had ever driven at the time, PERIOD! Looking back through the old magazines the stopping power of the brakes was not much less than those of today, but 30+ years of rusting takes its toll. Rotting bushings and old bearings makes the car loose and sloppy too.

My 69 is not the same car as my ZO6 regarding handling. But I will state absolutely that it is more than enough to humble any new car IF the driver knows how to drive. A new factory spec F41 69 with modern tires is a very potent car with brakes that will last much longer than standard brakes regarding fade. Again, the old mags were very impressed with how well the car would stop time after time during therir test without fading. Later C3's of greater weight put far more stress on the brakes. The 255/60 15 tires used on many of the later C3's looked great; but, you had to use soft tire pressure to get the tread to run flat over the road. This was not the way to go, but fat tires and lots of striping was the only way the car companies were able to keep a performance image! It was all window dressing.

Chuck

 

I've lived overseas about 20 years in various places and driven a wide range of vehicles. I think in general and I say in general US cars have softer suspensions. But I think the biggest difference is most everything I driven in Europe was a manual transmission. Nothing helps getting around a corner quickly then being able to down shift verse using the brake pedal.

 

Chuck, I still say that with modern tires, a C3 will hang with nearly anything out there, period.....damn little out there what will consistantly outdoo a C3...unless a whole LOT of money is spent....that means ZO6+++ in price....

 

mrvette,

The driver will make the biggest difference, but car for car the ZO6 is one awesome machine. When I was at Sears Point race way 2 weeks ago, there were guys in 5 liter Mustangs out driving many of us with potentially faster cars. The difference between a fast lap and a slow one was less than 10mph average speed around a 2.5 mile course. For example the ZO6 may have been capable of taking a particular curve at 101mph but I was only confident enough to go 93mph. The Mustang was capable of perhaps 95 and the driver took it at 94. At Sears Point, if you go off the track chances are very good you will hit something. How confident are you at judging the speed, the car's potential, as well as your own? Do you want to drive the car home, or drag it home at the end of a hook?

I am more confident taking any corner a little faster in the Z than the L88. But a very good driver can drive the L88 faster around a corner than I am willing to do in the Z unless I know I will simply spin out without damaging the car. Yet if were driving the cars on an old air strip with no worry about hitting anything, I can corner harder in the Z than the L88. If I had sticky racing tires on the L88, I can out corner the Z with its very good street tires.

Both cars weigh the same and are equally balanced. The 69 has a significantly shorter wheel base. But the Z is far more rigid allowing a more compliant suspension. On a perfectly smooth surface this doesn't matter much, but on a rough surface the stiff suspension of the L88 can lose contact with the road.

Both are tremendous cars and I hope I never have to choose between them!

Chuck

 

[QUOTE]will a monoleaf spring help?[QUOTE]

- Yes, the monoleaf helps - but it will 'feel' funny - there's no "progressive spring rate" so it'll feel like your cornering 'hard' all the time.

SuperFast80 - 'killer' article - I need to pass that on to my '72 Porsche buddy !

Twinnie - you're a good sport man & I envy you - we don't have an autobahn :sad: road in the states.....under 80mph, though I'm still pro-Corvette all the way ! :flag