I love this kind of christmas!
Help with my first SBC buildup
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Hi everyone!
Quick update
Back home in Sweden again after a really nice vecation in the states (Florida with a quick 18 hour 1000 mile trip to SC) and on San Martin (caribbean island).
When I got to my shipping address in florida it was christmus all over again, wow there is a lot of parts in an engine
Anyhow, time to start packing! The restriction "only handbaggage" I gave the rest of my family was now usefull as intented. Filled 6 bags with between 50 and 70 lbs each!
Everything packed survived, wrapped all our braugh clothes around the stuff and packed it tight and worked really good.
As some of you may notice the rotating assembly isn't there as planned. I was promised to have the rotating assembly by the 4th by Scat through Brian at AD performance but by the 9th the parts still hadn't arrived. Brian at AD performance really tried his best at the end but as Scat didn't have to kit ready things didn't go my way which I blame scat for. Will have to work somthinig out to get it home.
Some smaller parts with a total of $263 was missing from the Skip White orders too but were still checked off the packing list which makes we wonder how serious they really are if they can't manage to pack what they manually check off? We will se what they have to say about it, I emailed them 3 days ago and still havn't got an answer
Anyway, the parts that are here look superb! I don't think I'll ever regret taking the $400 step to the AFRs, they are a real piece of art!
Will keep you guys updated!
Quick update
Back home in Sweden again after a really nice vecation in the states (Florida with a quick 18 hour 1000 mile trip to SC) and on San Martin (caribbean island).
When I got to my shipping address in florida it was christmus all over again, wow there is a lot of parts in an engine
Anyhow, time to start packing! The restriction "only handbaggage" I gave the rest of my family was now usefull as intented. Filled 6 bags with between 50 and 70 lbs each!
Everything packed survived, wrapped all our braugh clothes around the stuff and packed it tight and worked really good.
As some of you may notice the rotating assembly isn't there as planned. I was promised to have the rotating assembly by the 4th by Scat through Brian at AD performance but by the 9th the parts still hadn't arrived. Brian at AD performance really tried his best at the end but as Scat didn't have to kit ready things didn't go my way which I blame scat for. Will have to work somthinig out to get it home.
Some smaller parts with a total of $263 was missing from the Skip White orders too but were still checked off the packing list which makes we wonder how serious they really are if they can't manage to pack what they manually check off? We will se what they have to say about it, I emailed them 3 days ago and still havn't got an answer
Anyway, the parts that are here look superb! I don't think I'll ever regret taking the $400 step to the AFRs, they are a real piece of art!
Will keep you guys updated!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 95
Neighbor bought a set of pro comp oval port pro comp BBC heads from skip white six months ago. Valve covers won't fit without him grinding on the heads to make them fit. $900.00 cost on the heads. Naturally he was a little disgusted with pro comps casting, current machining quality. He called to get his money back. No problem if he pays them a $250.00 restocking fee on a $900.00 set of heads. Nice little scam. Smart move you made in your build going to afr or someone else for heads. 63 mako is right the power operating range of your cam is two high with 3.08 gearing.
Last edited by Little Mouse; Jan 12, 2012 at 01:34 PM.
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Some smaller parts with a total of $263 was missing from the Skip White orders too but were still checked off the packing list which makes we wonder how serious they really are if they can't manage to pack what they manually check off? We will se what they have to say about it, I emailed them 3 days ago and still havn't got an answer
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 95
Relative of mine spent $10.000.00 to put his daughter into the salon business just north of downtown dallas. She goes over to a warehouse in garland looks at some mirrors they had on display decides to buy some. Delivery truck delivers her four new mirrors she signs for them does not open them up till later. All four mirrors have bad smudge marks that are incased in the mirror glass itself. I'm down there helping them paint there new shop. We jump in his SUV spend his gas carrying them back to the garland warehouse. We no longer had the boxes. We show the people the smudge marks inbeded in the glass. No apoligies whatsoever for selling him a defective product ( chinese mirrors ) Now they want to charge him you guessed it a $250.00 restocking fee for stuff that is clearly they sold as defective. They are determined this is going to happen keep insisting no boxes $250.00. My relative is livid he picks up his cell phone says i'm going to call my lawyer let you talk to them. He calls his wife who only works for a group of lawyers done so most of her life knows there kind of lingo. After talking to her on the phone pretending to be a lawyer lol. After it was all done he agreed to pay $30.00 for the boxes. Even that should not have happened.
While we were there arguing man they had in the warehouse opens up several more boxes of the same mirrors. Everyone had smudge marks. Bastards had picked out a few that happen to be good put them in there display area for the public to look at. You get them back no problem you charge them a $250.00 restocking fee. They know you will probably just put up with the defect or pay them money.
My neighbor is stuck with that decision on his oval port pro comp heads. If the valve covers won't even fit what else is wrong with them ??
While we were there arguing man they had in the warehouse opens up several more boxes of the same mirrors. Everyone had smudge marks. Bastards had picked out a few that happen to be good put them in there display area for the public to look at. You get them back no problem you charge them a $250.00 restocking fee. They know you will probably just put up with the defect or pay them money.
My neighbor is stuck with that decision on his oval port pro comp heads. If the valve covers won't even fit what else is wrong with them ??
Last edited by Little Mouse; Jan 12, 2012 at 05:28 PM.
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A little update..
Hi,
Just thought I would give you all a update. After a lot of emailing that I got no or a bad answer to and a filed complaint to eBay buyer protection skip performance actually took their responability and sent me the balancer and top end kit. They are now in Yankeetown, Florida and I'm in Stockholm, Sweden
Will have to solve that somehowe. Also learnt that you shouldn't mix White Performance with Skip White Performance as they are not at all the same company which is comfusing to say the least.
The Muncie that I got a so good deal on turned out to be a not so good deal as the seller on eBay just stalled the shipping untill it was too late to file a complaint. After a dozen emails he now claims he will refund the money by the end of the week but of course no transmission and yet no money which makes me mad.
Last but not least the rotaing assembly has finally shipped and is now at the dock in NJ for sea freight to Norway. Will be a blast when it arrives. I can really recommend Brian at AD performance, so far he has been very nice to me and there is really nothing to complain at when it comes to prices either.
Last but not least I'm still itching on this camshaft question. I'm considering stepping down on camshaft and at the same time convert to e85 in order to make this possible but havn't really made up my mind yet.
I would like some input from someone out there driving with the kind of specs my current cam is with at with a sbc?
¤ What compression are you running?
¤ What gas?
¤ What rear ratio?
¤ What trans?
¤ How does it feel?
Once it's in there the change is a hell of a lot harder!
Anyways, that was a little update. Will be back
// Axel
Just thought I would give you all a update. After a lot of emailing that I got no or a bad answer to and a filed complaint to eBay buyer protection skip performance actually took their responability and sent me the balancer and top end kit. They are now in Yankeetown, Florida and I'm in Stockholm, Sweden
Will have to solve that somehowe. Also learnt that you shouldn't mix White Performance with Skip White Performance as they are not at all the same company which is comfusing to say the least. The Muncie that I got a so good deal on turned out to be a not so good deal as the seller on eBay just stalled the shipping untill it was too late to file a complaint. After a dozen emails he now claims he will refund the money by the end of the week but of course no transmission and yet no money which makes me mad.
Last but not least the rotaing assembly has finally shipped and is now at the dock in NJ for sea freight to Norway. Will be a blast when it arrives. I can really recommend Brian at AD performance, so far he has been very nice to me and there is really nothing to complain at when it comes to prices either.
Last but not least I'm still itching on this camshaft question. I'm considering stepping down on camshaft and at the same time convert to e85 in order to make this possible but havn't really made up my mind yet.
I would like some input from someone out there driving with the kind of specs my current cam is with at with a sbc?
¤ What compression are you running?
¤ What gas?
¤ What rear ratio?
¤ What trans?
¤ How does it feel?
Once it's in there the change is a hell of a lot harder!
Anyways, that was a little update. Will be back
// Axel
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Hi,
Last but not least I'm still itching on this camshaft question. I'm considering stepping down on camshaft and at the same time convert to e85 in order to make this possible but havn't really made up my mind yet.
I would like some input from someone out there driving with the kind of specs my current cam is with at with a sbc?
¤ What compression are you running?
¤ What gas?
¤ What rear ratio?
¤ What trans?
¤ How does it feel?
Once it's in there the change is a hell of a lot harder!
Anyways, that was a little update. Will be back
// Axel
Last but not least I'm still itching on this camshaft question. I'm considering stepping down on camshaft and at the same time convert to e85 in order to make this possible but havn't really made up my mind yet.
I would like some input from someone out there driving with the kind of specs my current cam is with at with a sbc?
¤ What compression are you running?
¤ What gas?
¤ What rear ratio?
¤ What trans?
¤ How does it feel?
Once it's in there the change is a hell of a lot harder!
Anyways, that was a little update. Will be back
// Axel
This is your first build. You posted on here asking for advice. My advice was to build with matching components that complimented your intended use, gearing and fuel availability. 10 to 1 with the next smaller cam and a comfortable DCR. Everyone else that posted here said basicly the same thing and gave you similar advice. An 11 to 1 383 and 3.08 gearing does not work. The 2.5% loss in power going from 11 to 1 to 10 to 1 in a 500 HP build is tiny if it puts the operating range of the engine in the RPM band it is needed in for your application.
I understand that you've been trying to push my compression down (and my cam with it) and I have read alot about the choice of compression because of this. After all the only disadvantage with having to much of it seems to be detonation.
Detonation will destroy your engine
If you can avoid that there is as I understand it only positive things with having a higher compression. It gives you effectiveness, better low and mid range given no matter what cam and the ability to benefit fully from a long duration cam in the high RPMs if you wish to have that. The 2.5% gain in peak HP is according to many considered a bonus to the previous mentioned on a street build.
2.5% extra HP is a bonus if the car is setup for it. Your isn't
After having read alot on Swedish websites and forums about guys using 11:1+ with pump gas and much milder camshafts I started investigating it. According to a few engine builders around town, a professor at my school (vehicule engineering college) and many guys on different forums I should be alright with 11:1 SCR no matter choice of camshaft in the conditions where I plan on driving the car. That was the complete thinking behind the decision of compression.
Those guys are wrong. Intake closing point and compression determine DCR. A smaller duration cam moves the intake closing point earlier resulting in higher dcr. That combined with high static compression causes detonation once you pass a certain point you are boarderline or past that point now. Your 3.08 gearing will compound the problem.
I don't want a 7500 rpm strip engine but I want a nice stout and powerfull smallblock reving a bit over 6k. With this kind of displacement, compression and a full roller setup I don't think it should be impossible to get promising numbers up top and a good low/mid range??
You need low and midrange with your 3.08 gearing. An 11 to 1 383 with a cam that will not detonate the pistons out of the holes will not have the bottom end needed for 3.08 gearing.
Detonation will destroy your engine
If you can avoid that there is as I understand it only positive things with having a higher compression. It gives you effectiveness, better low and mid range given no matter what cam and the ability to benefit fully from a long duration cam in the high RPMs if you wish to have that. The 2.5% gain in peak HP is according to many considered a bonus to the previous mentioned on a street build.
2.5% extra HP is a bonus if the car is setup for it. Your isn't
After having read alot on Swedish websites and forums about guys using 11:1+ with pump gas and much milder camshafts I started investigating it. According to a few engine builders around town, a professor at my school (vehicule engineering college) and many guys on different forums I should be alright with 11:1 SCR no matter choice of camshaft in the conditions where I plan on driving the car. That was the complete thinking behind the decision of compression.
Those guys are wrong. Intake closing point and compression determine DCR. A smaller duration cam moves the intake closing point earlier resulting in higher dcr. That combined with high static compression causes detonation once you pass a certain point you are boarderline or past that point now. Your 3.08 gearing will compound the problem.
I don't want a 7500 rpm strip engine but I want a nice stout and powerfull smallblock reving a bit over 6k. With this kind of displacement, compression and a full roller setup I don't think it should be impossible to get promising numbers up top and a good low/mid range??
You need low and midrange with your 3.08 gearing. An 11 to 1 383 with a cam that will not detonate the pistons out of the holes will not have the bottom end needed for 3.08 gearing.
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Thread Starter
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The camshaft you selected will work if you convert over to E85. It is borderline with premium. Actual Octane rating of E85 is 94-96 octane. A smaller cam is not an option. The 11 to 1 compression build you are doing will not compliment your 3.08 gearing at all. This build is poorly designed and will be disappointing considering the money , time and effort you have invested.
This is your first build. You posted on here asking for advice. My advice was to build with matching components that complimented your intended use, gearing and fuel availability. 10 to 1 with the next smaller cam and a comfortable DCR. Everyone else that posted here said basicly the same thing and gave you similar advice. An 11 to 1 383 and 3.08 gearing does not work. The 2.5% loss in power going from 11 to 1 to 10 to 1 in a 500 HP build is tiny if it puts the operating range of the engine in the RPM band it is needed in for your application.
This is your first build. You posted on here asking for advice. My advice was to build with matching components that complimented your intended use, gearing and fuel availability. 10 to 1 with the next smaller cam and a comfortable DCR. Everyone else that posted here said basicly the same thing and gave you similar advice. An 11 to 1 383 and 3.08 gearing does not work. The 2.5% loss in power going from 11 to 1 to 10 to 1 in a 500 HP build is tiny if it puts the operating range of the engine in the RPM band it is needed in for your application.
I think you're very harsh with your post. I understand that you have a lot more experiance and know a lot more then me but I've already told you that I'm ready to up the gearing so the 3.08 won't be staying if that's the problem.
Next I don't wan't to sound cocky but I don't know how much reading you've done about e85 as a fuel. I can say that I've never heard of e85 being 94-96. I've heard everything between 100 and 111 where ~105 are the most common.
Here are a few interesting links:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/evom-ne...93-octane.html
"Between 105-110"
http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&...yRUtNDPyg0ynfg
"Between 100 and 105"
http://www.e85performance.net/forums...hp?t-1082.html
This guy is now running his blown bbc with an 8-71 @9psi with compression 11:1 on e85. That engine used to run vp116
http://www.raceone85.com/
Claims 105 as octane rating, claims 14.5:1 is ok N/A on e85.
etcetcetc, those links are not hard to find. I can't find any saying 94-98 I can tell you that.
I also asked a proffessor at my school that has been working building engines for 50 years (20 of them for GM in Detroit) and he claims e85 would burn perfectly in 17:1 but those are in perfect condirtions. He claims however that 14:1 is well safe no matter camshaft. He does however flag for the fact that swedish e85 is actually e65 winter time so that our cars will start when it gets cold. However this is not really the time to drive a convertible.
AFR makes a set of heads that are about 10 cc bigger in chamber. I could change for those and sell my current with a proffit here in Sweden as a friend is flying over in 2 months. I don't however want to do so before I'm really sure because there are a lot of guys around here telling me I'm right on.
I'm sure there are guys over there running a bit more hardcore sbs on the street? No one reading this that could chim in?
Don't need to sound rude or ungratefull for your tips but I must say your the only one here sounding like I sold the butter and lost my money
Best Regards Axel
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Hi 63mako.
I think you're very harsh with your post.
Not meaning to be harsh, just stating facts.Next I don't wan't to sound cocky but I don't know how much reading you've done about e85 as a fuel. I can say that I've never heard of e85 being 94-96. I've heard everything between 100 and 111 where ~105 are the most common.
E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher-compression engines, which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual-octane engine tests." [7]
Examples of this mis-citation can be found at the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association titled "E85 Facts"[8] which cites a range of 100-105, and a document at the Texas State Energy Conservation Office titled "Ethanol"[9], which cites a 113 rating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
I also asked a proffessor at my school that has been working building engines for 50 years (20 of them for GM in Detroit) and he claims e85 would burn perfectly in 17:1 but those are in perfect condirtions. He claims however that 14:1 is well safe no matter camshaft.
Don't mean to sound harsh but your professer is an idiot.
AFR makes a set of heads that are about 10 cc bigger in chamber. I could change for those and sell my current with a proffit here in Sweden as a friend is flying over in 2 months. I don't however want to do so before I'm really sure because there are a lot of guys around here telling me I'm right on.
That would be a great move and one I would seriously consider.
I'm sure there are guys over there running a bit more hardcore sbs on the street? No one reading this that could chim in?
Yes, There are many running serious power right here on the forum. The majority oif 11 to 1 small blocks are running a solid roller cam pulling to 7000RPM and have a first gear ratio trans and rear end combined of right around 10 to 1 to optimise those build specs.
Don't need to sound rude or ungratefull for your tips but I must say your the only one here sounding like I sold the butter and lost my money
I will run your DCR numbers and see what I come up with. Might want to start a thread that goes something like (Building a 500+ hp 11 to 1 383. Need cam advice) Make sure you state trans and differential gearing.
Best Regards Axel
I think you're very harsh with your post.
Not meaning to be harsh, just stating facts.Next I don't wan't to sound cocky but I don't know how much reading you've done about e85 as a fuel. I can say that I've never heard of e85 being 94-96. I've heard everything between 100 and 111 where ~105 are the most common.
E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher-compression engines, which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual-octane engine tests." [7]
Examples of this mis-citation can be found at the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association titled "E85 Facts"[8] which cites a range of 100-105, and a document at the Texas State Energy Conservation Office titled "Ethanol"[9], which cites a 113 rating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
I also asked a proffessor at my school that has been working building engines for 50 years (20 of them for GM in Detroit) and he claims e85 would burn perfectly in 17:1 but those are in perfect condirtions. He claims however that 14:1 is well safe no matter camshaft.
Don't mean to sound harsh but your professer is an idiot.
AFR makes a set of heads that are about 10 cc bigger in chamber. I could change for those and sell my current with a proffit here in Sweden as a friend is flying over in 2 months. I don't however want to do so before I'm really sure because there are a lot of guys around here telling me I'm right on.
That would be a great move and one I would seriously consider.
I'm sure there are guys over there running a bit more hardcore sbs on the street? No one reading this that could chim in?
Yes, There are many running serious power right here on the forum. The majority oif 11 to 1 small blocks are running a solid roller cam pulling to 7000RPM and have a first gear ratio trans and rear end combined of right around 10 to 1 to optimise those build specs.
Don't need to sound rude or ungratefull for your tips but I must say your the only one here sounding like I sold the butter and lost my money
I will run your DCR numbers and see what I come up with. Might want to start a thread that goes something like (Building a 500+ hp 11 to 1 383. Need cam advice) Make sure you state trans and differential gearing.
Best Regards Axel
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
If your using 5.7" rods and have a 286/294 advertised duration and 110 lsa ground 4 degrees advaced you are at 8.67 to 1 DCR. If you have 6 " rods your @ 8.63 to 1 DCR.
8.5 to 1 DCR is a maximum safe DCR on premium fuel and this is only if everything is perfect. I usually shoot for 8.25 to 1 to be safe, especially with a less than 10 to 1 final 1st gear ratio.
This cam gives you 8.38 to 1. http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=308&sb=2
I figured solid roller because your at the point in compression you need to go that way. It will definetly not work with your gearing.
If you keep your cam and go with the bigger chamber heads and have them flat milled .036" to 69 CC's you will be @ 10.5 to 1 compression and 8.2 to 1 DCR. That gets you your compression and can run on premium fuel and solves everything. With a 383 and a 4 speed you might be ok with your 3.08 but it would really, really like a 3.70 gear. AFR can flat mill these and set them up with correct springs.
Just trying to help.
8.5 to 1 DCR is a maximum safe DCR on premium fuel and this is only if everything is perfect. I usually shoot for 8.25 to 1 to be safe, especially with a less than 10 to 1 final 1st gear ratio.
This cam gives you 8.38 to 1. http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=308&sb=2
I figured solid roller because your at the point in compression you need to go that way. It will definetly not work with your gearing.
If you keep your cam and go with the bigger chamber heads and have them flat milled .036" to 69 CC's you will be @ 10.5 to 1 compression and 8.2 to 1 DCR. That gets you your compression and can run on premium fuel and solves everything. With a 383 and a 4 speed you might be ok with your 3.08 but it would really, really like a 3.70 gear. AFR can flat mill these and set them up with correct springs.
Just trying to help.
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After talking to a lot of professional engine builders around here building everything from 250hp to 2000hp v8s it looks like I'm sticking with my setup. At least for now.
Today it was once again christmus around here when the rotating assembly arrived after a 4 moth wait
Scat rotating assembly with pistons from mahle and bearings from clevelite
Also noticed that I didn't post any pics on the heads which are almost pieces of art! AFR 195cc 65cc CNC:
Now the fun starts! I'm sticking with my current engine for this summer and will be doing some efforts tuning it right while building the new engine on the side.
To be continued
Today it was once again christmus around here when the rotating assembly arrived after a 4 moth wait
Scat rotating assembly with pistons from mahle and bearings from clevelite
Also noticed that I didn't post any pics on the heads which are almost pieces of art! AFR 195cc 65cc CNC:
Now the fun starts! I'm sticking with my current engine for this summer and will be doing some efforts tuning it right while building the new engine on the side.
To be continued
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Hi,
Just thought I would update everyone with the outcome of this project. I ended up selling the engine unassembled to a fellow forum member here in Sweden. Realized I wanted something more daily driver friendly and bought an LS t56 combo and swaped that in (you can read all about it here: http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversion...l#post17413608).
However I kept contact with the buyer and the engine is now assembled and dynoed. All the parts that I got is used in the engine except for the timing chain that was changed for an adjustable one and the engine made 584 hp/6200 rpm and 596 nm or torque at 4800 rpm. Runs on premium pump gas without any sign of detonation and is now installed in a corvette 1970 that runs like a bat out of hell.
To pick the parts for this engine was a great learning experiance for me and I thank you all for all the great input!
Best Regards Axel
Just thought I would update everyone with the outcome of this project. I ended up selling the engine unassembled to a fellow forum member here in Sweden. Realized I wanted something more daily driver friendly and bought an LS t56 combo and swaped that in (you can read all about it here: http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversion...l#post17413608).
However I kept contact with the buyer and the engine is now assembled and dynoed. All the parts that I got is used in the engine except for the timing chain that was changed for an adjustable one and the engine made 584 hp/6200 rpm and 596 nm or torque at 4800 rpm. Runs on premium pump gas without any sign of detonation and is now installed in a corvette 1970 that runs like a bat out of hell.
To pick the parts for this engine was a great learning experiance for me and I thank you all for all the great input!
Best Regards Axel
