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Vintage Air AC installed in a 77

 
Old 12-22-2011, 03:45 PM
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Rotonda
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Default Vintage Air AC installed in a 77

I have received a number of questions concerning the installation of a Vintage Air unit into a 77 and later models Vintage's catalog lists kits only up to 76. I have decided to post this write up and photos to help spread my experience.

INTRODUCTION
After many R4 compressors in my Jaguar/FI sbc conversion, I knew I did not want to go this route with the 77. When I replaced the engine, a Sanden 508 was installed. I was originally going to go with a VIR conversion but research told me that these did not work well with R134a and I found them a rats nest to look at and work on. I looked at all the aftermarket conversions and settled on Vintage Air as the best because of its all electronic controls. (A NOTE: Forum member TimAT has a 77 that he installed another vendor’s cable controlled unit into. He was able to adapt the controls to work with his stock 77 control head. Do a search for more info.)

Vintage Air (and the other aftermarket suppliers) offers kits only up to 76. This is because of the changes to the 77 dash, and this posting will describe some of the modifications I did to make it fit. Some mods were necessary, while some seemed like good ideas for functional or aesthetic reasons.

I have also had some inquiries about Vintage Air installs in 78 and later. I have no knowledge on whether a Vintage Air install might be feasible in 78 to 82’s. Some questions to begin with are 1) whether the right side firewall/bulkhead have been changed from the 68-77 design; 2) whether the distance between the center stack and the firewall has been decreased (there’s not a lot of room in the 68-77, and if there is less it WILL be a problem and; 3) whether the changed 78-82 RH dash design will leave enough room for the Vintage Air evaporator (the 68-77 requires that the inside lower lip of the RH lower dash pad be trimmed. On 78-82’s, you will almost certainly lose your glove compartment and it is possible that there will be unacceptable interference between the dash and evaporator. If I had a 78-82, with their modern orifice tube system, I would flush it out, change out the orifice tube for a diameter, and replace the condenser, compressor, drier, safety switch and all hoses to modern designs and materials to accommodate R134a.

ORDERING THE UNIT
Because I already had the compressor (I ordered with a rear exit. A standard exit with available hard lines will definitely work), because I wanted a larger condenser than the Vintage kit offered, and because I wanted the drier and safety switch in the engine compartment (Vintage kit has the drier in the nose and holes drilled through the body for the liquid line), I ordered the Vintage evaporator kit for a previously AC’d car (This consists of everything from the firewall back.). I ordered directly from Vintage and substituted the electric rotary controls offered in their catalog for the pieces that are normally used to adapt the 68-76 rotary controls. Vintage uses a different ECM with their rotary controls than they supply with their 68-76 kit, so this is a special order. The Vintage people are knowledgeable and helpful. Talk to them about what you want.

I ordered a 15x27 parallel flow condenser from Nostalgic Air Parts, as well as a drier, a trinary safety switch and many or the other items necessary for the install. They have good prices and great shipping.

MOUNTING THE EVAPORATOR UNIT
The kit has reasonable documentation and instructions (available on-line at the Vintage Air site – definitely download before you buy). The 77 body/firewall is substantially unchanged from the 76 and prior, but you will undoubtedly have to make small improvisations to make it fit. Some things I did were:
1) The kit includes an oval plastic cap to block off the fresh air inlet behind the right kick panel. I was not satisfied with this because this is a potential path for water entry and spent more time sealing this area.
2) The kit includes a round steel cap to cover the hole between the firewall and the wiper compartment where the original fan drew air from the wiper compartment. I cut out a .072” aluminum plate to fill this entire area, glued a piece of rubber on a part of the underside and used existing studs on the firewall to mount. The rubber seals the hole from the fan and the plate both cleans up this area and gives me a place to mount the AC drier and my spark box.
3) The kit provides a metal plate to cover the hole in the firewall left by the removal of the original AC Vintage provides plastic push in fasteners to hold the plate, probably because it is a PITA to use bolts. I took the time and effort to use SS bolts, but it means some changes in the recommended installation sequence.

MOUNTING THE COMPRESSOR
I am using a bracket from Street & Performance and a SS tension rod to mount the Sanden 508. I am using the original crank pulley to drive it. There are many ways to mount the compressor out there. A search of the Forum will get you names.

MOUNTING THE CONDENSER
I used a 15”x27” parallel flow condenser from Nostalgic Air (approx $100). I mounted it to the stock original two condenser mounting pieces that go from the top to the bottom of the radiator support and are rubber bushed. I cut down a piece of z-flashing (from Lowes/Home Depot), bolted it to the condenser and pop riveted it to the stock mounting pieces.


MOUNTING THE ELECTRIC HOT WATER SHUT OFF VALVE
I mounted this directly to the top of the frame by drilling and tapping two #10x32 holes. The valve is held in place by 2 ½” SS machine screws. These run through the mounting holes on the top of the valve, into 2” nylon spacers and into the frame. This arrangement suspends the valve slightly above the frame , allowing it to float and protecting it somewhat against direct vibration.

WIRING THE UNIT
Because of my addition of fuel injection, electric fan and numerous other electrical/electronic goodies, my wiring experience with the Vintage Air is not typical. Several things I can assist with however are:
1) The wiring that Vintage supplies is all nicely bundled into a harness. It is possible to use as supplied, but you can make shorter and neater runs if you disassemble it.
2) The stock bracket that is welded to the center tunnel and supports/mounts the 77’s console plate makes an excellent place to mount the Vintage circuit breaker and relay.
3) I would pull all constant power for the unit directly off of the battery, through a Maxi-Fuse in the battery compartment..
4) There is a hole/plug in the firewall down and to the right of the wiper motor and just behind the right side of the distributor. This can be easily modified to carry any size harness through the firewall when sealed with a 3M marine urethane sealant. In my install this carries all the wiring for the VA stuff plus the power and controls for the Lincoln MK VIII fan and Delta Current PWM controller. To clean up the engine compartment I then ran all of this wiring through a piece of ½’ grey plastic conduit, shaped to the inside contour of the fender and run through the wheelwell. I also used this same method (with ¾”) to run the #6 liquid line from the condenser back to the drier.

MOUNTING VINTAGE AIR ROTARY CONTROLS
Most of this can be seen in the photos. The mounting surface is a pebble grained black plastic (to provide a little contrast with the smooth console material). The fit of these controls is critical. They drop into the opening and are secured by screws pressing from the back. If the mounting hole is cur too big, the controls will wiggle around in the extra space. I started with a .060” plate of aluminum and made the hole. I then made a template of where the mounting holes for the original AC control head and transferred them so the outlet was exactly where I wanted it (the extra **** and electronics are a part of a variable wiper control). I then bonded the plastic face plate to the aluminum with a 3M marine sealer/adhesive. After curing I cut the plastic out from the rear (through the aluminum template) and fit the control.

DASH CHANGES
1) The 77 center AC discharge is entirely different from the 68-76 and there is nothing in the kit that can be adapted to connect the 2 two inch hoses from the evaporator unit to the 77 outlet. I removed the center stack and confirmed that there is more than 2” between the bottom of the dash and the top of the center stack roof. I got a block of Styrofoam 12x12x2’ and began cutting/shaping the Styrofoam to form a mold for a fiberglass skin. For the hose inlets I used 2 steel 6oz juice cans, with the tops removed, cut to length and slightly ovaled. Because there was room and because of the notorious crush of hoses on any aftermarket install, I moved the inlets from the rear to the left side. Please note that this Styrofoam mold is designed to be inserted approx 1/2 “ into the backside of the 77 center louver assembly. I then coated the mold with plaster of paris, then with a mold release compound and used pieces of thin fiberglass cloth and epoxy resin to enclose the mold (except for the ends of the 2 cans and the dir discharge areas). After everything was cured I manually removed most of the Styrofoam mold by chipping it out and the balance by dissolving with acetone (be sure everything is well cured and use sparingly – you don’t want to damage the skin). I then fabbed a 2” high aluminum piece that I pop riveted into the interior of the molded piece. This both added support and provided a diverter so that the output of each of the 2 hoses would generally be directed through either the left or right louver. I finished everything off with a coat of POR 15, both to further strengthen things and to insure that any condensation would not rust the steel inlets or saturate the glass substrate.

2) The lower edge of the right dash pad will slightly interfere with the mounted evaporator. The ABS substrate will need to be lightly ground away. This is not visible from the passenger compartment.

4) I have replaced the cheap astro-ball AC outlets more than once because of cheap chrome coming off and/or bound up felt seals. The flapper valves also need attention to continue to function smoothly. The VA pieces that adapt this assembly to accept a 2 ½ “ hose add still more to their length. I found a more modern, functional outlet at Nostalgic Air that directly fit the 2 ½“ hose. They were all black and blended well with the 77’s black accents. At 2 ½ “ they were a ¼ “smaller diameter than the opening in the dash. I cut out 2 black plastic rings from one of the ‘tool suitcases’ (strong reinforced plastic), interference fitted the outlets and fixed them into the dash using the stock ‘spider’ from the original assembly The 1/8 “ ring around them is not noticeable..

5) The 77’s driver lap vent remains problematical. I am in the process of fitting a T into the hose going to the LH outboard vent. I have salvaged the adaptor from the stock system and modified it to accept a 2” hose. We’ll connect them up and see if works and is useful.

6) Finally, the routing to the LH outboard duct is a real PITA You need too much periodic access there and where ever you put it, it’s a problem. VA’s kit includes one flattened plastic oval to route the RH outboard duct behind the evaporator. Suggest you order a second for the LH side.


Below are photos to illustrate install.

The following 2 show the evaporator installed in the cockpit. Please note that some of the equipment installed onto the evaporator are not part of the system - they are for the security/central locking systems





The next two show the VA electrical components installed on the central consoles shift plate support





The next two show the top and bottom of the shift plate with the new controls installed. The tan circuit board and 4th rotary switch are for delayed wiper action.





The next group shows several views of the center stack and of the fabricated duct connecting to the center AC vent













The next 2 show the condenser and mounting





The next two show the compressor





The last show the firewall, drier and trinary switch





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Old 12-22-2011, 04:55 PM
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Thanks for the write up. I was thinking of seeing if that system would work in my 81, so thanks for breaking out the limiting factors.
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Old 12-25-2011, 12:47 PM
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Rotonda--

Great write-up... I am going to be installing Vintage Air in my 1973... After reading your write-up, been contemplating fiber glassing the two holes in the fire wall... See picture:



Then once I get the kit, cut the hole in the firewall for the 4 pipes to fit through...




Think it will be a better seal and cleaner looking application... Since you've already installed yours, what are your thoughts on my plan???

Thanks much

Rogman
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:58 AM
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Its a good idea and I would certainly do it to the round, blower fan hole. You may have some difficulty with the larger rectangular opening, however. The metal plate supplied by VA is not flat, but protrudes approx 3/4 inch into the engine compartment. The reason for this appears to be to provide extra room for the evaporator unit. As it is, portions of the evaporator fit snugly against this plate and the other side requires trimming of the RH lower dash pad. I think that you need this 3/4 inch cavity to fit the width of the evaporator unit. Eliminating this 3/4 inch protrudance/inside cavity and making the firewall flat may result in problems fitting the dash.

I also agree that the 4 hole round plastic cover plate from VA is cheap, unattractive and requires more silicone seal than is desirable. If you can come up with something better I'd love to see it.
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:23 AM
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Not to take anything away from Vintage Air unit but, If your car already has the AC controls then why not just upgrade the system with the Sanden 508 compressor and a new evaporator. One from a 78 will fit the original openings with a lot less mods. I used the VIR Eliminator kit on my 73 only because my evap was still in good shape.
Here again, I am not trying to take anything away from the Vintage Air system, just offering another way to go.
AC Install in my 73
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by redwingvette View Post
Not to take anything away from Vintage Air unit but, If your car already has the AC controls then why not just upgrade the system with the Sanden 508 compressor and a new evaporator. One from a 78 will fit the original openings with a lot less mods. I used the VIR Eliminator kit on my 73 only because my evap was still in good shape.
Here again, I am not trying to take anything away from the Vintage Air system, just offering another way to go.
AC Install in my 73

When I made my decision to go with the Vintage Air unit, I recognized that an orifice system from a 78-82 would work and give me the same basic system that is used by current vehicles. I compared the cost of obtaining a used system and replacing the heater core, evaporator and all of the miscellany that goes into a heater/ac rebuild and I came up close to the cost of the Vintage unit. THEN I started thinking about vacuum systems - the unreliability of all of the various C3 vacuum systems (after 35 or so years) and that any new vacuum actuators were likely to be made in China (with many examples crappy quality control - search headlight actuators on this forum for horror stories).

I decided to go with the Vintage unit. It is 100% brand new, all electric (NO VACUUM NEEDED), and offers modern features such as mixing ac and heat to give you dehumidified air when defrosting.
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Old 12-26-2011, 05:15 PM
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I totally agree with you decision based on all the work your system needed. Like I said, I was not knocking the Vintage Air system in any way.
If mine was as bad as most I would have done the same thing.
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Old 12-26-2011, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by redwingvette View Post
Not to take anything away from Vintage Air unit but, If your car already has the AC controls then why not just upgrade the system with the Sanden 508 compressor and a new evaporator. One from a 78 will fit the original openings with a lot less mods. I used the VIR Eliminator kit on my 73 only because my evap was still in good shape.
Here again, I am not trying to take anything away from the Vintage Air system, just offering another way to go.
AC Install in my 73
Nice install RWV... I did a cost comparison of the work I would need to do to bring my AC back up to speed versus a complete new system (Vintage Air)... I would spend almost as much to re-furb my factory air as it is to buy the VA... Plus all the modern features as Rotonda pointed out... I would much prefer to have the evap inside the car (and away from the engine heat) and get rid of the bulky AC box from within the engine compartment...

Rotondo, might just use the plate that comes with the kit to build a mold and then build a fiber glass shell from the mold... Then fiberglass all new piece to the firewall...

Where does the VA unit pull fresh air from??

Rogman
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Old 12-30-2011, 01:16 PM
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Excellent timing on the write-up as I was just about to decide on the A/C system for my 77, which has a 416 LS3 with VintageAir Frontrunner kit now.

Rogman: I don't think there is any fresh air being pulled in and this is not unusual for aftermarket kits. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Rotonda: Thanks for the write-up. I'd like to know what led to some of your decisons like:
- Did you think the condenser that comes with the VA kit is too small and hence you went with a different unit?
- Did you want the dryer inside the engine compartment for any specific reason, e.g. not so exposed at the front?

Also: If I am correct with the fresh air answer above, does this now mean there is no more fresh air entry for the system at all? Might not be a big deal as I have 2 windows, 2 T-tops and a removable rear window anyway.

Thanks!
Michael.


Originally Posted by rogman16 View Post
Nice install RWV... I did a cost comparison of the work I would need to do to bring my AC back up to speed versus a complete new system (Vintage Air)... I would spend almost as much to re-furb my factory air as it is to buy the VA... Plus all the modern features as Rotonda pointed out... I would much prefer to have the evap inside the car (and away from the engine heat) and get rid of the bulky AC box from within the engine compartment...

Rotondo, might just use the plate that comes with the kit to build a mold and then build a fiber glass shell from the mold... Then fiberglass all new piece to the firewall...

Where does the VA unit pull fresh air from??

Rogman
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:08 PM
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Thanks 77...

Rogman
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:55 AM
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I chose to install a larger condenser out of an excess of caution. I live in south Florida where it gets and stats quite hot. Having the greater area and capacity to shed heat into the hot atmosphere seemed a sensible precaution. This is the same motivation that to install a Stewart pump, an aluminum radiator and a Mark VIII fan. All are designed to get rid of as much heat as possible

My choice of drier location sprang from several different things. 1) By installing a larger condenser I have left little room for the drier up front. 2) The remaining space is largely consumed by the supplemental transmission cooler and by the Delta pwm fan control. 3) I am using a trinary pressure switch, part of which is used to turn the electric fan on when needed (when the AC system pressure begins to rise) and the wiring is slightly easier and cleaner with the drier on the firewall. And 4) My personal opinion that having the drier - the reservoir of liquid coolant coolant - close to the evaporation orifice outweighs the heat gain from the hotter engine compartment. And finally, The Vintage Air set up offers only a steel cased drier, which can rust inside and out, I went with an aluminum bodied drier to eliminate this possibility
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Old 12-31-2011, 10:41 AM
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like many on this forum I am unhappy w/AC on my 74. I wasn't going to change anything until this Spring when I can see what options are available.

I need a heater core right now so I can drive in the winter. I would hate to have to redo the work again in the Spring.
Will replacing the stk heater core cause problems down the road when I upgrade my AC?

Congrats on finding something better.
How much does better cost? LOL

R
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Old 12-31-2011, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Rotonda View Post
I chose to install a larger condenser out of an excess of caution. I live in south Florida where it gets and stats quite hot. Having the greater area and capacity to shed heat into the hot atmosphere seemed a sensible precaution. This is the same motivation that to install a Stewart pump, an aluminum radiator and a Mark VIII fan. All are designed to get rid of as much heat as possible

My choice of drier location sprang from several different things. 1) By installing a larger condenser I have left little room for the drier up front. 2) The remaining space is largely consumed by the supplemental transmission cooler and by the Delta pwm fan control. 3) I am using a trinary pressure switch, part of which is used to turn the electric fan on when needed (when the AC system pressure begins to rise) and the wiring is slightly easier and cleaner with the drier on the firewall. And 4) My personal opinion that having the drier - the reservoir of liquid coolant coolant - close to the evaporation orifice outweighs the heat gain from the hotter engine compartment. And finally, The Vintage Air set up offers only a steel cased drier, which can rust inside and out, I went with an aluminum bodied drier to eliminate this possibility
Thanks Tom... Think you have me convinced to do a similar setup... Get the Evap kit and then go with another retailer for the drier, compressor, condenser and hoses... Did you get your hoses from Nostalgic or VA??

Rogman
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Old 12-31-2011, 01:38 PM
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Default Keep opinions coming...

I am really enjoying this thread... I have installed just about all the aftermarket systems in everything from street rods to tri-fives, to 76 back corvette...... Thanks to all who have been asking and those that are anwsering... Kudos to Rotunda..... any more pics and ideas for the 77-82 style dash, im listening......
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:57 AM
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TAIJUTSU - Re: cost
If you budget $1500 you can get the whole thin done including hoses and fittings.

ROGMAN 16 - Re: Going to install
If you have any questions as you go along, do not hesitate to PM me. I'll be happy to help.

JOEY CARTEE - Thanks for your kind words!
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Rotonda View Post
TAIJUTSU - Re: cost
If you budget $1500 you can get the whole thin done including hoses and fittings.

ROGMAN 16 - Re: Going to install
If you have any questions as you go along, do not hesitate to PM me. I'll be happy to help.

JOEY CARTEE - Thanks for your kind words!
Thanks Tom, I'm sure I probably will need to do that in the future...

Rogman
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:32 PM
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If Vintage Air is watching this thread, maybe they will see an opportunity to make a kit.
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by nate99 View Post
If Vintage Air is watching this thread, maybe they will see an opportunity to make a kit.
you know, i been doing this a long long time... i ask vintage and classic why they would not adapt the kit for these 77-82, even if its electronic controlled... That was 20 years ago at Carlisle and Bloomington... so im going to do this one just like rotunda done his... thanks Rotunda..... any other comments or ideas will be more than appreciated....
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Old 11-17-2014, 08:56 AM
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Default Revived A/C Mod Thread for my winter project

Just to make it easier to find.....I bumped=up Rotunda's thread for my winter project (wife must have A/C/me must have peace )
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by doorgunner View Post
Just to make it easier to find.....I bumped=up Rotunda's thread for my winter project (wife must have A/C/me must have peace )
I'm with your wife on this one DG, I don't enjoy sweating my buns off trying to enjoy a nice ride.
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