Installed a Mallory UNILITE Conversion Kit but won't start
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 182
Likes: 9
From: British Columbia
I run a Mallory magnetic breakerless distibutor pn 5764501H w/mech. tach drive & vac advance, no filters for the last 4 years with no issues on my '63. I do not use a ballast resistor but run a Accel 8140C coil that due to the length/type of windings within the coil, provide 1,4 ohms of resistance. The coil looks like a regular coil other than it's chrome. It might be available in plain black. Worked for me.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,443
Likes: 65
From: Wauconda IL
I run a Mallory magnetic breakerless distibutor pn 5764501H w/mech. tach drive & vac advance, no filters for the last 4 years with no issues on my '63. I do not use a ballast resistor but run a Accel 8140C coil that due to the length/type of windings within the coil, provide 1,4 ohms of resistance. The coil looks like a regular coil other than it's chrome. It might be available in plain black. Worked for me.
Accel's doc clearly states this coil does not need a ballast.
Thanks for the tip!
Elm
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,931
Likes: 962
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
I really do appreciate your engineering knowledge and since most of us (including myself) don't have access to an oscilloscope I cannot answer your questions. Perhaps you would like to share with all of us the answer now so you don't have to bring it up for a 68th time?
(insert smile here)- If you know something, this is the place to share, not to argue. I'm not arguing. I'm trying to correct things when technical inaccuracies are posted. After spending a couple decades designing ignition modules, ECMs and PCM, I'll confess I do find it frustrating when I'm told I'm full of crap.
I don't claim to know everything but I do like to learn. I share what I've found in my travels working with this stuff over the years and if I'm not 'technically' accurate I apologize but that doesn't necessarily make my assessment invalid.
My question to you is if a coil is "labeled" as 12 volts yet requires the use of a ballast resistor in order to keep it from self-destructing at a full 12 volts, is it truly a 12 volt coil? I don't know. (How's that for an honest answer?
) As an engineer who uses inductors (coils) in projects such as engine and transmission controls, a "12 Volt" label means nothing. The only pertinent descriptions (regarding inductors) are its inductance, winding resistance, turns ratio if it's a transformer type inductor, maximum current before the wires burn open, insulative/dielectric strength, and a couple other more boring specs. Stamping 12V on the coil housing tells me nothing. As an ignition coil is an energy storage device (designed to quickly dump that energy into the plug gap) there's two main items that describe the magnitude of that energy. Those are the inductance (more or less how much windings there are in the primary) and the current level just prior to the points opening (Energy = 1/2 LI^2). Note a couple things. When the inductance is increased (more windings) that the energy potential goes up. When the current goes up, the energy goes up by the square of that current (doubling the current give you four times the energy). Note also that voltage is nowhere to be found in the energy formula. In my mind, a true 12 volt coil would wouldn't require external circuitry to keep it alive. I understand what you're saying. That perception makes sense. While I don't understand where the 12V label originated from (as it makes no engineering sense), I suppose this odd label could also be be applied to 12V starters, which will blow up if continually hooked up to 12 volts. Please explain where my theory falls off the tracks.
Thank You
Elm
(insert smile here)- If you know something, this is the place to share, not to argue. I'm not arguing. I'm trying to correct things when technical inaccuracies are posted. After spending a couple decades designing ignition modules, ECMs and PCM, I'll confess I do find it frustrating when I'm told I'm full of crap.
I don't claim to know everything but I do like to learn. I share what I've found in my travels working with this stuff over the years and if I'm not 'technically' accurate I apologize but that doesn't necessarily make my assessment invalid.
My question to you is if a coil is "labeled" as 12 volts yet requires the use of a ballast resistor in order to keep it from self-destructing at a full 12 volts, is it truly a 12 volt coil? I don't know. (How's that for an honest answer?
) As an engineer who uses inductors (coils) in projects such as engine and transmission controls, a "12 Volt" label means nothing. The only pertinent descriptions (regarding inductors) are its inductance, winding resistance, turns ratio if it's a transformer type inductor, maximum current before the wires burn open, insulative/dielectric strength, and a couple other more boring specs. Stamping 12V on the coil housing tells me nothing. As an ignition coil is an energy storage device (designed to quickly dump that energy into the plug gap) there's two main items that describe the magnitude of that energy. Those are the inductance (more or less how much windings there are in the primary) and the current level just prior to the points opening (Energy = 1/2 LI^2). Note a couple things. When the inductance is increased (more windings) that the energy potential goes up. When the current goes up, the energy goes up by the square of that current (doubling the current give you four times the energy). Note also that voltage is nowhere to be found in the energy formula. In my mind, a true 12 volt coil would wouldn't require external circuitry to keep it alive. I understand what you're saying. That perception makes sense. While I don't understand where the 12V label originated from (as it makes no engineering sense), I suppose this odd label could also be be applied to 12V starters, which will blow up if continually hooked up to 12 volts. Please explain where my theory falls off the tracks.Thank You
Elm
I've probably written more here than most will read, but if you have any specific items or questions you'd like to discuss, I'm happy to pass on whatever information I can. I didn't invent any of the pertinent laws of physics, but I had the good fortune to work with and learn from many talented individuals in the automotive electronics industry (including having the designer of the HEI module as my mentor when I went to work after graduating from college). I don't have any need to keep this information just to myself.
Pro
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 709
Likes: 10
From: Carlsbad CA
Mallory Coil #29219. $45 at Amazon.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,443
Likes: 65
From: Wauconda IL
Pete,
I don't want to alarm you but I have 2 dead 29219 coils on my shelf that boiled the oil out of them after about 8 hours run time each in my boat.
I too have the Mallory doc that clearly states that this coil doesn't require a ballast with the electronic trigger and after repeated calls to their tech support for an answer, I finally got a hold of someone that confessed that this coil actually DOES need a ballast but the doc in the box is wrong. Sounds like it hasn't been revised.
You probably haven't run it long or hard enough to be an issue but I'd keep an eye on it. How hot does it get after you run the car?
Mine got so hot, I couldn't touch them.
Elm
I don't want to alarm you but I have 2 dead 29219 coils on my shelf that boiled the oil out of them after about 8 hours run time each in my boat.
I too have the Mallory doc that clearly states that this coil doesn't require a ballast with the electronic trigger and after repeated calls to their tech support for an answer, I finally got a hold of someone that confessed that this coil actually DOES need a ballast but the doc in the box is wrong. Sounds like it hasn't been revised.
You probably haven't run it long or hard enough to be an issue but I'd keep an eye on it. How hot does it get after you run the car?
Mine got so hot, I couldn't touch them.
Elm
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,443
Likes: 65
From: Wauconda IL
I've probably written more here than most will read, but if you have any specific items or questions you'd like to discuss, I'm happy to pass on whatever information I can. I didn't invent any of the pertinent laws of physics, but I had the good fortune to work with and learn from many talented individuals in the automotive electronics industry (including having the designer of the HEI module as my mentor when I went to work after graduating from college). I don't have any need to keep this information just to myself.
I too try to share what knowledge I know (even if I may be off on the engineering at times) but I don't try to steer anyone in the wrong direction. I've wasted my share of dollars on parts that aren't compatible or just simply don't work so I've perhaps grown a bit cynical in my old age. I apologize if I came across as not believing your information, that was not my intent. Finding folks on-line that have actual experience with something vs hearsay and armchair opinions is surprisingly hard to come by. That's probably why I preface most questions I post with the caveat "has anyone had actual experience" lol.
I'd still like to know the answer to your 2 questions but we can do that off-line.
Sorry to high-jack the OPs thread!
Back to the question at hand.
Is it safe to say we agree that the trigger for the ignition should always run at full 12 volts (unless you are running points) and the coil may or may not need a ballast based on manufacturer specifications (hoping their doc is accurate)?
Any luck in troubleshooting your Unilite issue?
Elm
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,931
Likes: 962
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
You're the guy I need to know!
I too try to share what knowledge I know (even if I may be off on the engineering at times) but I don't try to steer anyone in the wrong direction. I've wasted my share of dollars on parts that aren't compatible or just simply don't work so I've perhaps grown a bit cynical in my old age. I apologize if I came across as not believing your information, that was not my intent. Finding folks on-line that have actual experience with something vs hearsay and armchair opinions is surprisingly hard to come by. That's probably why I preface most questions I post with the caveat "has anyone had actual experience" lol.
I'd still like to know the answer to your 2 questions but we can do that off-line. Can do. Sorry to high-jack the OPs thread!
Back to the question at hand.
Is it safe to say we agree that the trigger for the ignition should always run at full 12 volts (unless you are running points) and the coil may or may not need a ballast based on manufacturer specifications (hoping their doc is accurate)? Yes. While it is possible to run an ignition module off of the C+ line (with a ballast), it just adds additional problems due to the ripple of the supply line every time the dwell turns on and off, plus you lose "headroom" as the module might not work at all if the battery drops a few volts during a flooded carb long crank time. Regarding the coil, unless the manufacturer explicitly says "this or that", I would default to an assumption that it's a fragile piece of equipment and needs a ballast in point applications (and simple electronic conversions), while the more sophisticated electronic systems with active dwell control (HEI, PertronixIII IIRC) monitor and control the actual current to keep things safe, and thereby don't need a ballast resistor.
Any luck in troubleshooting your Unilite issue?
Elm
I too try to share what knowledge I know (even if I may be off on the engineering at times) but I don't try to steer anyone in the wrong direction. I've wasted my share of dollars on parts that aren't compatible or just simply don't work so I've perhaps grown a bit cynical in my old age. I apologize if I came across as not believing your information, that was not my intent. Finding folks on-line that have actual experience with something vs hearsay and armchair opinions is surprisingly hard to come by. That's probably why I preface most questions I post with the caveat "has anyone had actual experience" lol.
I'd still like to know the answer to your 2 questions but we can do that off-line. Can do. Sorry to high-jack the OPs thread!
Back to the question at hand.
Is it safe to say we agree that the trigger for the ignition should always run at full 12 volts (unless you are running points) and the coil may or may not need a ballast based on manufacturer specifications (hoping their doc is accurate)? Yes. While it is possible to run an ignition module off of the C+ line (with a ballast), it just adds additional problems due to the ripple of the supply line every time the dwell turns on and off, plus you lose "headroom" as the module might not work at all if the battery drops a few volts during a flooded carb long crank time. Regarding the coil, unless the manufacturer explicitly says "this or that", I would default to an assumption that it's a fragile piece of equipment and needs a ballast in point applications (and simple electronic conversions), while the more sophisticated electronic systems with active dwell control (HEI, PertronixIII IIRC) monitor and control the actual current to keep things safe, and thereby don't need a ballast resistor.
Any luck in troubleshooting your Unilite issue?
Elm
Pro
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 709
Likes: 10
From: Carlsbad CA
Pete,
I don't want to alarm you but I have 2 dead 29219 coils on my shelf that boiled the oil out of them after about 8 hours run time each in my boat.
I too have the Mallory doc that clearly states that this coil doesn't require a ballast with the electronic trigger and after repeated calls to their tech support for an answer, I finally got a hold of someone that confessed that this coil actually DOES need a ballast but the doc in the box is wrong. Sounds like it hasn't been revised.
You probably haven't run it long or hard enough to be an issue but I'd keep an eye on it. How hot does it get after you run the car?
Mine got so hot, I couldn't touch them.
Elm
I don't want to alarm you but I have 2 dead 29219 coils on my shelf that boiled the oil out of them after about 8 hours run time each in my boat.
I too have the Mallory doc that clearly states that this coil doesn't require a ballast with the electronic trigger and after repeated calls to their tech support for an answer, I finally got a hold of someone that confessed that this coil actually DOES need a ballast but the doc in the box is wrong. Sounds like it hasn't been revised.
You probably haven't run it long or hard enough to be an issue but I'd keep an eye on it. How hot does it get after you run the car?
Mine got so hot, I couldn't touch them.
Elm
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Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 38
Likes: 1
Thanks for taking the time to add to the conversation. I really appreciate that.
Ron
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 38
Likes: 1
All is running great.....right now......Mallory #558 Unilite Converstion with Mallory #30450 Pro E series Coil. Big difference! Time will tell and if I experience problems, I'll be back!
Thanks to all who have joined in this conversation. It was wonderful to hear from those who know something and actually care enough to help solve a problem.
Ron
Thanks to all who have joined in this conversation. It was wonderful to hear from those who know something and actually care enough to help solve a problem.
Ron
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 38
Likes: 1
All is running great.....right now......Mallory #558 Unilite Converstion with Mallory #30450 Pro E series Coil. Big difference! Time will tell and if I experience problems, I'll be back!
Thanks to all who have joined in this conversation. It was wonderful to hear from those who know something and actually care enough to help solve a problem.
Ron
Thanks to all who have joined in this conversation. It was wonderful to hear from those who know something and actually care enough to help solve a problem.
Ron
ballast, chysler, coils, conversion, converting, dist, distributor, fire, ignition, installing, kit, mallory, points, resistor, set, unilite
