billla

There are a bunch, but it's not worth going over them point by point unless you really want to. Again - I wouldn't read too much into this; the lingo is new to you so he may be right on. But I would get him on the phone with an experienced bulder.

Xterrable

Thanks Billla.

The only two things that caught my attention are his suggestion to get new pistons and not having taken any Connecting Rod measurements yet.

He was alluding to the fact of trying to keep it in budget without wasting time of measurements. I have heard of people spending hours on measurements alone, so that made sense to me. But I could very well be wrong.

Manuel Azevedo

I really shouldn't get into this but, people here are only talking in theory, if the block was already bored you maybe stuck with what ever size they clean up with, but you still need the pistons in hand to determined the final sizing not "they should be this or they usually are that" Is the engine in question here only suppose to be a stock type engine? if so you can get away with all this bore hone buy pistons later stuff.
This shop says there is a deck height problem cool. you doing a stock type engine or a hot rod? And then says he doesn't know what the problems is, piston, rod or what ever. Look there is a deck height to the piston as well measure the rod length. If someone wants to know what a given problem is measure it! Over all seems there is a problem here and it maybe someone trying to have a "Blue Printed" engine on a stock engine budget. One needs to know what the end results are they want and can afford. Measure everything and make your dissection, to much guessing and not sure and theory of what should be and not be going on here. This shop should have the answers and make the suggestions on how to achive the end results and not be saying "I don't know whats the cause is. Anyway Flame on I'm out of here!

BLOCKMAN

Most shops don't use torque plates as with plates thats what the pistons actually sees for clearance with the heads torqued on. If the shop did not plate hone your block you better find a real shop that can bore and hone block correctly.

Also if the bores your block off an unsquared deck you better find a real shop that decks the block first so you bores are a true 45 degrees and a true 90 degrees to the crank.

If you can't find a shop the can deck the block with out leaving the vin number on the deck find a real shop that can.

I Have fit a lot of pistons over the years and so far the clearance is built into the piston and a .030 piston will fit a .030 over bore from what I have seen.

I use a lot of Mahle Power Pack piston kits and there instructions that want a .030 over bore period!!! and they do tell you depending on the application you can go up to.001 to .003 over on the bores if being used in performance application.

Most pistons are skirt coated now and you can't which will make it hard to get an accurate measurement as the coating is not figured in.

Indiancreek

This debate comes up about every four to six weeks. Mostly the same question and answers. Lots of ways to do things. Most evry machinist and builder have thier way of getting to the same location. It ends up being a debate that never reaches a conclusion.

Manuel Azevedo

Yes what you say is true and fits into what I have been trying to get accross, I really believe the op is at the wrong shop or at lease he does not have a very good working relationship with this shop which still means the same thing.

billla

Too many folks with a "right" answer rather than accepting it's between the individual shop and the engine builder...regardless of the reasons.

BLOCKMAN

There are a lot of Mickey Mouse machine shops out there that just don't do machine work correctly, I see all the time.

Find a good machine shop that has a good reputation and knows what they are doing it sometimes may cost more but the results are better in the end. In most cases a novice home engine builder can assemble there engine them self.

There are also to many 2 bay garage engine builders out their!!!

Mark Riles

When I was a kid my dad and I built my first engine in an out building. It was a Chevy 327. The building was heated with a wood stove, had dirt floors, and a wood plank bench. Every part we used was from something else including gaskets and bolts. If the part was dirty we wiped it off with a rag. That 327 lived in the old farm truck for 30 years. Heck I think the engine still ran when the truck was too far gone to save and the whole thing got scrapped. Point is application is everything what you want out of it. We wanted a farm truck engine and we got exactly what we wanted.

billla

All anyone needs to do is look around on this site and many, many others to see some of the outstanding engine builds from garages all over the world. The home garage is the heartbeat of performance and the essence of hotrodding.

Garbage work can come from anywhere, just like anything else, and you don't have to look too far on this site and many, many others to see big professional shops that have built complete junk...and charged thousands upon thousands of dollars to do it. But it's no more true to say that this is the rule rather than the exception than it is to say a home builder can't build a really outstanding engine, working with a great machine shop.

69 Chevy

Unless you intend this to be a racing engine, then I'd suggest Silvolite’s hypereutectic pistons or other reputable hypereutectic type. No need for forged pistons.

BLOCKMAN

If there building junk how could they be a prefessional shop!!!! I deal with some professional shops I think they do good work!!! The junk shops weed them selves out from the good ones.

There are a lot of substandard shops out there that sould only be dealing stock engines period or lawn mower engines.

Just got an engine 2 weeks ago that the shop did not line hone the mains which the main bearings were a junk, did not square the decks or plate hone the cylinders or size the rods and they did not check them for bend a twist and was built in a 2 bay garage

cv67

Either make him build it totally your way or let him do it the way he sees is best. Being as hes the machinist then-

If you dont trust the guy take it somewhere else.

Biggest limit with these is $.

Most failures with hypers are ignorant mistakes-wrong P to wal clearance but mostly improper ring gap/tuning.

Rich's'78

Blockman: Is going a couple of thou over with hypers likely to cause cold engine only piston slap?

Thanks.

BLOCKMAN

Going a .001 over should not cause piston slap if your block is plate honed If its not who knows what the clearance is with the heads bolted on

Indiancreek

A couple 1/1000s is a bit much. 5/10s not a big deal. The only guys who ask for 4 or5 1/1000s are the demo derby guys who run the heat without a radiator after a point. You talk about a loose engine, you can almost drop the pistons in.
A few 1/10s isn't major at 4 tenths thats 2 ten thousands of an inch per side. Running tear downs come in with 0.010 or more clearance from a well driven engine and were running just fine. When you have a problem cleaning up an engine at 0.030 and it was running before the removal, and no skirt noise, leads me to think rings are still sealing. The hole a bit large isn't what brings them down early. It's normally in the bottom end. Rods and crank and bearings.
How much you paid isn't an indicator of the quality of the engine, Maybe the quality of the parts. There have been plenty costly engines not last.

Tim81

I don't know if the poor shops weed themselfs out at all. At least in this area you don't have a lot of shops to choice from. Most guys who open a shop call themself professionals but who is really the judge of that. Word of mouth goes a long way here in determining who's good or not.

BLOCKMAN

I hear that !!!!

Manuel Azevedo

The statement "professionals but who is really the judge of that" really hit home here. At work I always told my guys how to determined quality in their work and I used it in their "ranking" used for pay determination. (fancy talk for a big company) anyway this is what I used:

Customer
/_\
Worker Product



Explanation:

1. the customer is unhappy, poor quality.

2. you do not feel good about the work you did, poor quality.

3. the product delivered will not do the job, poor quality.

Turn these around for top "quality"

1. customer happy, good quality etc.


If you take anyone of these things from the equation it is poor quality, but if it satisfies the triangle it is of quality. The reason used this was that I had works complain that they did a great job, but the customer was not happy but they did it right! wrong. happy customer is needed as they pay all bill! Doesn't matter how good the product is or how good the worker thinks is was, it is not good if the customer thinks other wise.
Obvious it is bad Quality if the job will not do the job, people always blame some else for the failure though.
If you did not do the work to the highest standards that you hold your self too you did not do a quality job.

I know I get caught up in all this stuff for sure, I was judging this shop based on my opinions of how to do the job! Yea I know how to do the best job for my self but I may miss it some times to my customers. Hope this all makes sense a bit to the subject here. The OP here just needs to feel good about what this shop is going to do for him, and really all or most of our input here is just confusing him and putting down a shop that may or not be a good shop! The OP would be better off asking the procedures on how to have a block prepped and to have a good short block set upped.

Indiancreek

We're beating a dead horse here for a couple of reasons. We've beat this same dead horse before.
Really, if we haven't seen or examined the item, or talked with both sides it's a never ending discussion.
The philosophy each of us have with regard to engine building may differ, but there isn't probably much difference in any of them other than whether a good engine can be built on a budget or by a novice. It would be great if every guy needing an engine rebuild had a giant wallet, but they don't. MOST are on some budget, some are on a very small budget and they have many more important things that require their available cash.
There are plenty who get their block done this month and in a couple months get the crank turned and buy the pistons still down the road further. There are a fair number who for monetary reasons must assemble their own engine. If that is unacceptable for some shops, send them my way. I see them all the time. I've had several who I worked with more than a year to finish their machine work, and they are as proud as anybody is with their results. Some in that position even more so, because it was such a struggle. I'm going to bury this dead horse as far as I'm concerned.