Which is why it's impossible to install a cam 180* off..................

 

For such a relatively simple tech question, this is the most unpleasent thread ive read on this forum, so far!

 

A little unpleasant, but a lot of good info too...

Thing is, I experienced the same thing w/ the timing on my car. I will have to run this by my buddy who knows more than I. I know, let's all go to YouTube and look for an animation of a V8 engine...

 

If this is the most unpleasant thread you have read; you need to read more threads...
It's all good.

 

I read the threads that are of interest to me, not every one the forum, selective reading.
However, if you think that the threat of a moderator to remove certain members from the forum for bad manners is ALL GOOD, just shows not everyone sees eye to eye, even on a tech point.
Steve.

 

Steve - I intended my post as a joke, to lighten things up.

 

Interesting read, lol. So, in summary;

- Cam can't really be installed 180 degrees out.
- #1 cylinder can't fire ~properly~ with the timing mark 180 degrees out.
- #1 and #6 cylinders fire at the same spot in the crank rotation so both would show correctly on the timing mark.

So, I guess we're still waiting on the OP to explain what he did or what he found because what he's telling us doesn't yet make sense.


I have install every cam I've done this apparent ~180 degrees~ out. You have to rotate it a few times to set the valves and you should rotate it a few times when pre-lubing it. So just make sure the #1 valves are closed and the timing marks are aligned before dropping in the distributor. I'm personally not sure how the cam install matters by the time you're ready to drop in the distributor.

 

I forgot about the new question. The plate/piece the rotor is attached to should move freely. It should more or less be held at one end of the travel by the springs on the weights and it should be easily movable in one direction. If yours doesn't move then it's siezed up and needs attention.

 

Yet the engine runs quite well per the OP...

Clearly not; 1 and 6 as companion cylinders are at TDC at the same time on different strokes - i.e. when 6 is on compression, 1 is on exhaust and the reverse.

Well...it makes different sense to different posters

 

No, not correct- #6 fires 360* of crank rotation after #1. The pistons of these two cylinders rise and fall at the same time but are never on the same stroke at the same time. One is on the power stroke while the other is on the intake etc.

 

With the timing light hooked up #1 or #6, the timing mark will look the same using a timing light, don't believe it? Go try it. Yes 360 deg apart.

 

Good point, a little extra reassurance never hurts!

 

I agree that 1 and 6 are going to show the timing mark in the same place at TDC, just 2 strokes apart, as has been said. Their relative positions on the crank guarantee it.

Here's some speculation to add to the mess. If the balancer slips, it slips counter-clockwise as the crank and balancer hub accelerate away from it. If the balancer slipped 90 degrees CCW and you were on the no. 1 plug with your light, the timing mark would appear on the right side of the engine as the OP described. If you then put your light on the no. 8 (eight) plug wire, the timing mark would appear under the timing tab where it should be for no. 1 if there was no balancer slippage. So is it possible that the balancer slipped and the OP had the no. 8 wire, when he thought he was on no. 6? That may not be what happened, but it explains some of what he said.

 

When the light is connected to #1 the balancer slips 180° and when the light is connected to #6, it just slips back

Where is the OP anyway?

 

That's what I think happened. Originally he was on #1 but when he saw the timing mark correctly, he was not on #6, but on #4 which, if the mark was originally 180 off would then put it on the timing tab, as 4 would fire 180 deg from #1 or 180 plus 360 from #6. Hopefully the OP will be back to clarify his troubleshooting.

 

Sorry, that is correct. I meant the same time or same point in the crank rotation. #1 can't appear to fire 180 degrees out compared to #6 on a properly setup and running engine.

 

Yes, you're right. I re-read the first post more closely and see the OP said "like 180". So, yes, with 180 out and you had the light on no. 4, the timing mark would be where you would normally expect to see it if everything was right and you were on No. 1.

If you're a dumbass like me, you can make a simple paper engine to visualize what's happening in general. Draw a square 3/4" on a side. At each corner draw a 1/4" circle. With one side of the side horizontal (actually 2 side will be), write "12" on the northeast circle, "34" on the southeast circle, "78" on the southwest circle and "65" on the northwest circle. Connect the northwest circle with a line to the southeast circle and connect the northeast circle to the southwest. Where the lines cross in the centerline of the crank and the 1/4" circles represent the rod journals. Make a 3/8 to 1/2" circle with the crank centerline as the center of the circle. That represents the balancer. Approximately 10 degrees clockwise from the centerline of the "12" circle put a small mark on the "balancer" circle. This mark represents 10 BTDC on No. 1 (and no. 6). Draw a 2" circle around this artist's misconception using the crank center as the center for the 2" circle. Cut out the 2" circle. On another piece of paper, mark a centerpoint and make 2 lines 90 degrees apart, both starting at the centerpoint. These represent the cylinder bores. At about 1.5 " out on the 2 lines, make a line on each perpendicular to the bore centerline. Those lines then are the block deck. Now using a thumbtack through the center of the 2" cut-out, stick the 2" cut-out at the origin point of the 2 lines which represent the cylinder bores. Now, by rotating the 2" cutout (crank and balancer), you can walk through the whole firing order, keeping track of which cylinder is on the compression stroke and which are on the exhaust stroke. Now you can put other marks on the "Balancer" to represent different slippage amounts and see what is going on at TDC on compression on No. 1 versus assuming the timing light is on different cylinders. Sorry for this long-winded blast and the arts and crafts class, if you make this "paper engine" it is easy to see what is going on. If I knew what I was doing I'd post some shots of mine. Anywho, hope this helps.

 

Guys this has been one enjoyable read.
It made my brain go places it didn't even know existed.

Did I understand right that the timing light on #1 and #6
shows up on the same timing marks. That is pretty cool stuff.

I've seen timing marks walk all the way around a balancer but never saw one that just moved to a different spot and stayed there.

Thanks for the fun read guys.

Ralph

 

If the timing is at 10 degrees BTDC, the following applies:

1 & 6 fire at 10 degrees BTDC (360 crank degrees apart)
8 & 5 fire 90/450 degrees later than no. 1 (Same)
4 & 7 fire 180/540 degrees later than no. 1 (Same)
3 & 2 fire 270/630 degrees later than no. 1 (Same)

The paired cylinders fire with the timing mark at the same place.

To end a lot of speculation, the OP should look at the relative positions of the crank keyway and the timing mark on the balancer, as has been suggested before, to determine if the outer ring has slipped. I would draw a radial line between the hub and the outer ring of the balancer, so that later you could easily see if there was movement between the 2. The right thing to do would be to replace the balancer, if it is determined that it has slipped.

 

I think the ultimate conclusion is that the OP is incorrect in either:

1. His pickups were not at cylinder described.
2. his estimate of #1 being 180 degrees off is wrong.
3. his declaration that the engine is running well is BS. ( spark is jumping across wires, or firing order wrong)

or....

4. Since we have not heard from him in 5 days, this is a hoax thread...

it is all either incorrect information, or a joke.