Ethanol in gas
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
E10 has been widely distributed across most of Canada and the northern US for at least 20 years. It's been commonly available in the Pacific northwest for at least 30. In most cases there was NO label on the pump indicating the ethanol content, or it was marketed at 'gasohol'. Most people, including cars geeks had no idea that they were burning E10.
Here's a station in Florida that was selling it in the early 90s
To directly answer your question-
what people, who, where: probably 1/4 to 1/3 the population of North America
How long: 20-30 years
What type engines: everything that used gasoline over the same time period.
There's no evidence over this period of anyone having difficulties with their cars, new or old.
This 'horrible issue' that people keep banging on about only surfaced when E10 labelled pumps appeared a few years ago. You seem to have swallowed the story hook, line and sinker. Good luck with your magic elixirs, the snake oil salesmen must love you.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,666
Likes: 289
From: Spring Park MN
What people. Who? Where? How long precisely, and in what type engines?
Lars is a well known carb expert, I guess his precautions for ethanol use are false as well? He has NO experience in what a fuel does to components in a carburetor does he? Ethanol, specifically corn ethanol, is an excellent cleaning agent. It also happens to burn. It's so corrosive that it can't be put into the pipelines and has to be mixed at the pumping stations. It loves to collect water. Water doesn't burn.
It goes through phase separation once it collects enough water in your OPEN fuel system, in your classic car, tractor, skid loader, lawn mower, leaf blower, chain saw, snow blower, generator, etc etc. get the idea. None of these items are built to be compatible with Ethanol and it's water absorbing, phase separation attributes.
If Ethanol could be produced without stripping the land of nutrients by not ever rotating the crops, without becoming a commodity like oil, without becoming big government, and without being rammed down our throats I think more people would accept it.
What happened to $1.85 E-85 when pure gas was $3.00 per gallon? I'll tell you, it became law to use Ethanol and thereby profitable to charge as much as possible for it.
It went from saving the planet to big business. It became corrupt. And now is ingrained in the economy and vital to making money for all involved in the process of producing it, from the farmer to local government to refineries, to big government to the middle man. All have much to lose if Ethanol fails. So it cannot fail. There is too much at stake now and will be forced upon us, like it or not. Lobbyists of interest groups apply pressure and new laws are passed. So now here we are.
The argument is not really whether Ethanol is good or bad for an engine so much as why are we being forced to buy it. And why does it cost just as much as gasoline?
You want to motivate people to buy Ethanol? Do it through their pocketbooks, not by brute force. Make Ethanol a cheap alternative and most will buy it given that their car does not suffer from it.
For the rest of us let us have our pure gas at the reasonable market value price, and not some artificially inflated trying to force us to use Ethanol, price.
Lars is a well known carb expert, I guess his precautions for ethanol use are false as well? He has NO experience in what a fuel does to components in a carburetor does he? Ethanol, specifically corn ethanol, is an excellent cleaning agent. It also happens to burn. It's so corrosive that it can't be put into the pipelines and has to be mixed at the pumping stations. It loves to collect water. Water doesn't burn.
It goes through phase separation once it collects enough water in your OPEN fuel system, in your classic car, tractor, skid loader, lawn mower, leaf blower, chain saw, snow blower, generator, etc etc. get the idea. None of these items are built to be compatible with Ethanol and it's water absorbing, phase separation attributes.
If Ethanol could be produced without stripping the land of nutrients by not ever rotating the crops, without becoming a commodity like oil, without becoming big government, and without being rammed down our throats I think more people would accept it.
What happened to $1.85 E-85 when pure gas was $3.00 per gallon? I'll tell you, it became law to use Ethanol and thereby profitable to charge as much as possible for it.
It went from saving the planet to big business. It became corrupt. And now is ingrained in the economy and vital to making money for all involved in the process of producing it, from the farmer to local government to refineries, to big government to the middle man. All have much to lose if Ethanol fails. So it cannot fail. There is too much at stake now and will be forced upon us, like it or not. Lobbyists of interest groups apply pressure and new laws are passed. So now here we are.
The argument is not really whether Ethanol is good or bad for an engine so much as why are we being forced to buy it. And why does it cost just as much as gasoline?
You want to motivate people to buy Ethanol? Do it through their pocketbooks, not by brute force. Make Ethanol a cheap alternative and most will buy it given that their car does not suffer from it.
For the rest of us let us have our pure gas at the reasonable market value price, and not some artificially inflated trying to force us to use Ethanol, price.
Last edited by v2racing; Oct 8, 2013 at 03:25 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 65,492
Likes: 230
From: Orange Park Florida
I edited out much of your rant because it's got nothing to do with the subject at hand.
E10 has been widely distributed across most of Canada and the northern US for at least 20 years. It's been commonly available in the Pacific northwest for at least 30. In most cases there was NO label on the pump indicating the ethanol content, or it was marketed at 'gasohol'. Most people, including cars geeks had no idea that they were burning E10.
Here's a station in Florida that was selling it in the early 90s
To directly answer your question-
what people, who, where: probably 1/4 to 1/3 the population of North America
How long: 20-30 years
What type engines: everything that used gasoline over the same time period.
There's no evidence over this period of anyone having difficulties with their cars, new or old.
This 'horrible issue' that people keep banging on about only surfaced when E10 labelled pumps appeared a few years ago. You seem to have swallowed the story hook, line and sinker. Good luck with your magic elixirs, the snake oil salesmen must love you.
E10 has been widely distributed across most of Canada and the northern US for at least 20 years. It's been commonly available in the Pacific northwest for at least 30. In most cases there was NO label on the pump indicating the ethanol content, or it was marketed at 'gasohol'. Most people, including cars geeks had no idea that they were burning E10.
Here's a station in Florida that was selling it in the early 90s
To directly answer your question-
what people, who, where: probably 1/4 to 1/3 the population of North America
How long: 20-30 years
What type engines: everything that used gasoline over the same time period.
There's no evidence over this period of anyone having difficulties with their cars, new or old.
This 'horrible issue' that people keep banging on about only surfaced when E10 labelled pumps appeared a few years ago. You seem to have swallowed the story hook, line and sinker. Good luck with your magic elixirs, the snake oil salesmen must love you.
Wife and I note our economy all the time, and have noticed how **** poor it is with the ethanol variations, and the driving habits don't change....
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,666
Likes: 289
From: Spring Park MN
Yes, the MPG will go down some with E10 over straight gas. It is not a huge loss of mileage though. What I've been speaking about is all the bull that E10 is causing damage to engines and fuel systems in any application. I've been around a few decades. I remember seeing gummed up and corroded carbs, rusted gas tanks, etc... long before E10 came around, E10 just gets the credit for these issues now. I've worked on just about anything with an engine since I was a teenager. I'm 60 now, so I have bit of time working with fuel systems under my belt.
Last edited by v2racing; Oct 8, 2013 at 04:00 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Ethanol contains 70% of the energy of 'pure' gas so E10 gas contains 97% of the energy of pure gas.
Your claim that you lose 10% mileage (or more) with 10% ethanol makes no sense. That could only happen if the ethanol had 0% energy and not 70% of pure gas.
I'm no supported of using food for fuel but you guys that have got your facts backwards or cling onto myths do more harm than good in any political effort to get rid of this stuff.
This might explain your delusion and confusion
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,091
Likes: 40
Better safe than sorry skip the corn chit, It was a bad idea in tHe 70's and a stupid one today that uses more energy than saves , not to mention all the associated cost with other commodities that go up .
To much goverment
To much goverment
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
http://seafoamsales.com/our-history/
"The inventor, Fred Fandrei, owned an outboard motor and it seemed as though every time he went fishing he would have engine trouble. The problems always stemmed from the gas and oil mixture, which became gummy and formed varnish between uses."
Yet E10 is solely to blame..............
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,284
Likes: 1,171
From: Hermosa
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Top 10 Most Expensive Corvettes Ever Sold on Bring A Trailer
Brett Foote
10 Things Every Corvette Owner Needs (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
8 Most "Only Corvette Owners Understand" Quirks and Problems
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Reasons the C6 Z06 is Still A Performance Benchmark After 20 Years
Joe Kucinski
How Much Horsepower Every Corvette Engine "LOST" in 1972
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 DOs and DON'Ts for Protecting Your Convertible Top!
Michael S. Palmer
Top 10 Most Explosive Corvettes Ever Made: Power-to-Weight Ratio Ranked!
Joe Kucinski
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,666
Likes: 289
From: Spring Park MN
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 14
From: Mobile Alabama
I forgot naive and gullible.
Doesn't it seem a little bit coincidental that almost all of the links out there- and all four that you posted- are from sites that just happen to sell a cure for the 'supposed' problem? Gee.
On the other hand, how do you explain that fact that people drove these cars on E10 for years or decades WITHOUT ISSUE and it was only when pump stickers became mandatory that all the sky-is-falling problems started?
Never mind getting rid of the ethanol, it's the stickers that are causing our cars to fail.
Doesn't it seem a little bit coincidental that almost all of the links out there- and all four that you posted- are from sites that just happen to sell a cure for the 'supposed' problem? Gee.
On the other hand, how do you explain that fact that people drove these cars on E10 for years or decades WITHOUT ISSUE and it was only when pump stickers became mandatory that all the sky-is-falling problems started?
Never mind getting rid of the ethanol, it's the stickers that are causing our cars to fail.
"OK, so our personal observations are not as good as yours.
Here is a report from the Oak Ridge National Labrotory - the U.S. Department of Energy’s research lab.
http://www.ornl.itp.govtools.us/docu...l%20Report.pdf
Can you give us an outside report backing your point of view?"
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
You never answered the first time I asked the question below. It was from another ethanol thread.
"OK, so our personal observations are not as good as yours.
Here is a report from the Oak Ridge National Labrotory - the U.S. Department of Energy’s research lab.
http://www.ornl.itp.govtools.us/docu...l%20Report.pdf
Can you give us an outside report backing your point of view?"
"OK, so our personal observations are not as good as yours.
Here is a report from the Oak Ridge National Labrotory - the U.S. Department of Energy’s research lab.
http://www.ornl.itp.govtools.us/docu...l%20Report.pdf
Can you give us an outside report backing your point of view?"
http://www.bcs-hq.com/
which probably why I didn't reply.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
Ethanol is a fact of life here in the USA, and it will likely get worse. Gasoline usage has become flat with all the small gas sipping cars and hybrid cars. The corn lobby, concerned about losing sales because upward projections for ethanol have not panned out due to flat gasoline sales has been pushing the EPA to increase ethanol content to 15%.
None of this about chemistry or what is good for the American public, this is about money and power.
I assume that where ever the US goes on this, Canada will follow.
Pete
None of this about chemistry or what is good for the American public, this is about money and power.
I assume that where ever the US goes on this, Canada will follow.
Pete
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,168
Likes: 17
From: Iowa
I have burned the 10 % blend in cars and trucks for 30 years or so. Never had one problem with it. When it first came to our area some poeple had trouble with foam Q-jet floats sinking to the bottem of the bowl. The cure was a brass float. I don't use it in lawn mowers or any air cooled motors cause it supposedly burns hotter. Never ever ever got worse mileage. I just checked it again last week on vacation as I do every time. Leave home full of E-10, fill with regular out of state, never get worse gas mileage with E-10. Sorry. This may be due to the fact that the E-10 is 89 octane and the reg is 87. Never heard all this hub bub till Ethanol became politically un-correct. Dave
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 14
From: Mobile Alabama
I don't recall your question- but your link redirects to
http://www.bcs-hq.com/
which probably why I didn't reply.
http://www.bcs-hq.com/
which probably why I didn't reply.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...wel_2012_o.pdf
Check the end of this one for elastomer study
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/etha...patibility.pdf
This one from English DOT looks further back at non fuel injected (like most C3s) vehicles. http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...tudyreport.pdf
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Sorry about that, the link was old, it did work when first posted. Here are a couple of new ones.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...wel_2012_o.pdf
Check the end of this one for elastomer study
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/etha...patibility.pdf
This one from English DOT looks further back at non fuel injected (like most C3s) vehicles. http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...tudyreport.pdf
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...wel_2012_o.pdf
Check the end of this one for elastomer study
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/etha...patibility.pdf
This one from English DOT looks further back at non fuel injected (like most C3s) vehicles. http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...tudyreport.pdf
Your second link deals with E25 through E85 fuels.
Your third link, assuming you're not focusing on carb icing, finally does talk about E10 and old cars, but comes up with the same 'maybe, possibly, might, could' predictions as all the other sky-is-falling papers I've been reading over the decades. Very nice- but these theoretical predictions don't seem to match real world experience.
Why don't we drag out the papers from the 70s that predicted that our engine will explode in big ***** of flame when they remove the lead from the fuel?
How about the studies from the '80s that had the world convinced we were heading into another ice age?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,284
Likes: 1,171
From: Hermosa
Considering phase separation due to contamination by water, this is potentially a serious problem because only 0.5 % water is required in an E10 blend to cause phase separation [38, 48]. The result is that two distinct liquid layers will form, the lower layer is an ethanol rich aqueous layer.
Monteiro et al investigated the effect of anhydrous and wet ethanol on materials commonly found in automotive fuel systems [37]. It was determined that wet ethanol was very much more aggressive than dry, with corrosion rates produced by wet ethanol being up to four hundred times faster than those caused by dry ethanol blends.
Monteiro et al investigated the effect of anhydrous and wet ethanol on materials commonly found in automotive fuel systems [37]. It was determined that wet ethanol was very much more aggressive than dry, with corrosion rates produced by wet ethanol being up to four hundred times faster than those caused by dry ethanol blends.
Sorry about that, the link was old, it did work when first posted. Here are a couple of new ones.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...wel_2012_o.pdf
Check the end of this one for elastomer study
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/etha...patibility.pdf
This one from English DOT looks further back at non fuel injected (like most C3s) vehicles. http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...tudyreport.pdf
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...wel_2012_o.pdf
Check the end of this one for elastomer study
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/etha...patibility.pdf
This one from English DOT looks further back at non fuel injected (like most C3s) vehicles. http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...tudyreport.pdf
Like I said the problem is that it is being forced upon us. That's why there is an ever growing outcry against Ethanol. I didn't have an issue with it either as long as I had a choice to not use it.
10% becomes 15% becomes20% etc.
It's like keeping a car from rolling down an incline on foot. You need to decide before the car even moves if you want it to roll or not, because once it gets rolling you can't stop it.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 408
Likes: 1
From: Ormond Beach Florida
Nice write up...but! I live in Florida where we have been using 10% ethanol for as long as I can remember. I drive 30+ year old cars (one a CFI corvette and the other a carbureted el Camino) and have not had a single problem with the fuel system or engine performance. As far as the "government" screwing me over with cost, we are experiencing a drop to $3.00 per gallon on the horizon (and maybe lower). I don't know to much about moisture being absorbed by ethanol, but it must be a minute factor because I see no ill effects from it. Keep the tank filled up, run the car as often as possible and, if you are going to store it because of winter weather up North, then treat the gas and prepare the systems accordingly. I am more concerned with the advertising war on oils and the skyrocketing prices, but then again it is only 5 qts. every 5K and I can live with that. Hell, by bottled water bill is higher then both gas and oil together per month. My $.02
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,112
Likes: 28
From: Florida
Bill was passed in March of 2008. Retailers spent almost 2 years getting ready.
To assume that ethanol was used to blend gas before either of those two dates is a real stretch even with Federal tax credits. MTBE was the oxygenate of choice. Oxygenated fuels were also not required.
In the Midwest, not a logistical problem, but in the west, east coast and south, yes. Costly.
I know of no station owner that would opt to sell a more costly and less profitable product labeling required or not, especially competing with products that consumers prefer, namely E0.
I also know of no consumer that has ever opted to buy E10 over E0 when E0 is/was available conveniently for a comparable price, not now, nor in the 70s.
The sale of E10 only represented 10% of US sales in 2011.
It's estimated that by 2022, this figure will be up to 25%.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 408
Likes: 1
From: Ormond Beach Florida
Well I will be damned...so this is why my mileage has dropped. Told you in an earlier post that I am just an amature at mechanics and definitely at chemistry. Still, that being said, I can't tell a huge difference but maybe that is because I do not have a big bore or turbo-charged flex capacitor to compare it with: In any case, to support your comments, here is something else I found. On a positive note, this is why I tune in to this forum, there are a lot of smart gear heads to learn from.
How much ethanol is in gasoline and how does it affect fuel economy?
In 2012, about 134 billion gallons of gasoline (3.19 billion barrels) were consumed in the United States, which contained about 13 billion gallons of ethanol, accounting for 10% of the volume of gasoline consumed.
Most of the gasoline now sold has some ethanol in it, but the exact amount varies by region. In general, ethanol will not exceed 10% by volume. Gasoline with 10% ethanol content by volume is known as E10, and with 15% ethanol is known as E15. E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than "pure" gasoline, although this varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol. Thus, vehicle mileage may decrease by up to 3.3% when using E10.
All gasoline vehicles can use E10, but currently you need a light-duty vehicle with a model year of 2001 or greater to use E15, and a "flex-fuel" vehicle to use gasoline with an ethanol content greater than E15. Most of the gasoline with more than 10% ethanol is sold in the Midwest.
How much ethanol is in gasoline and how does it affect fuel economy?
In 2012, about 134 billion gallons of gasoline (3.19 billion barrels) were consumed in the United States, which contained about 13 billion gallons of ethanol, accounting for 10% of the volume of gasoline consumed.
Most of the gasoline now sold has some ethanol in it, but the exact amount varies by region. In general, ethanol will not exceed 10% by volume. Gasoline with 10% ethanol content by volume is known as E10, and with 15% ethanol is known as E15. E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than "pure" gasoline, although this varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol. Thus, vehicle mileage may decrease by up to 3.3% when using E10.
All gasoline vehicles can use E10, but currently you need a light-duty vehicle with a model year of 2001 or greater to use E15, and a "flex-fuel" vehicle to use gasoline with an ethanol content greater than E15. Most of the gasoline with more than 10% ethanol is sold in the Midwest.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Not many drivers have consistent enough driving patterns and keep accurate enough numbers to see such a tiny difference.
Again- I'm no ethanol advocate but the myths and misunderstandings on every car or bike weebsite get a little tiresome.