Steering frustration
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,365
Likes: 0
From: Farmers Branch TX
Cruise-In VI Veteran
St. Jude Donor '09
Steering frustration
Hello all,
I am looking for insight into a steering play problem that I have been unable to solve. To date, my front suspension has been rebuilt, twice actually, as the first 'kit' I purchased were subpar parts. All high quality components have been used since. I have approximately 3 inches of play total at the steering wheel. All bushings, ball joints, tie rods and wheel bearings are free of play. The play can be felt at idle sitting still, and driving at speeds above 40 mph through a gentle curve is unnerving. My steering box has been rebuilt by a highly respected builder, flexible coupler replaced at the same time and responds instantly to steering input. I feel the play is at my power steering control valve, but am hesitant about throwing yet another part at this problem. The current valve was rebuilt by lonestar caliper and has approximately 7000 miles on it. I see a slight amount of play at the valve while the steering is moved with the engine running, but have been told repeatedly, the valve cant cause this much play. The steering has never felt right during my ownership and has only gotten mildly better with each attempt to remedy the problem, but I've yet to find the culprit. Any ideas?
I am looking for insight into a steering play problem that I have been unable to solve. To date, my front suspension has been rebuilt, twice actually, as the first 'kit' I purchased were subpar parts. All high quality components have been used since. I have approximately 3 inches of play total at the steering wheel. All bushings, ball joints, tie rods and wheel bearings are free of play. The play can be felt at idle sitting still, and driving at speeds above 40 mph through a gentle curve is unnerving. My steering box has been rebuilt by a highly respected builder, flexible coupler replaced at the same time and responds instantly to steering input. I feel the play is at my power steering control valve, but am hesitant about throwing yet another part at this problem. The current valve was rebuilt by lonestar caliper and has approximately 7000 miles on it. I see a slight amount of play at the valve while the steering is moved with the engine running, but have been told repeatedly, the valve cant cause this much play. The steering has never felt right during my ownership and has only gotten mildly better with each attempt to remedy the problem, but I've yet to find the culprit. Any ideas?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,918
Likes: 27
From: New Hill NC
Hello all,
I am looking for insight into a steering play problem that I have been unable to solve. To date, my front suspension has been rebuilt, twice actually, as the first 'kit' I purchased were subpar parts. All high quality components have been used since. I have approximately 3 inches of play total at the steering wheel. All bushings, ball joints, tie rods and wheel bearings are free of play. The play can be felt at idle sitting still, and driving at speeds above 40 mph through a gentle curve is unnerving. My steering box has been rebuilt by a highly respected builder, flexible coupler replaced at the same time and responds instantly to steering input. I feel the play is at my power steering control valve, but am hesitant about throwing yet another part at this problem. The current valve was rebuilt by lonestar caliper and has approximately 7000 miles on it. I see a slight amount of play at the valve while the steering is moved with the engine running, but have been told repeatedly, the valve cant cause this much play. The steering has never felt right during my ownership and has only gotten mildly better with each attempt to remedy the problem, but I've yet to find the culprit. Any ideas?
I am looking for insight into a steering play problem that I have been unable to solve. To date, my front suspension has been rebuilt, twice actually, as the first 'kit' I purchased were subpar parts. All high quality components have been used since. I have approximately 3 inches of play total at the steering wheel. All bushings, ball joints, tie rods and wheel bearings are free of play. The play can be felt at idle sitting still, and driving at speeds above 40 mph through a gentle curve is unnerving. My steering box has been rebuilt by a highly respected builder, flexible coupler replaced at the same time and responds instantly to steering input. I feel the play is at my power steering control valve, but am hesitant about throwing yet another part at this problem. The current valve was rebuilt by lonestar caliper and has approximately 7000 miles on it. I see a slight amount of play at the valve while the steering is moved with the engine running, but have been told repeatedly, the valve cant cause this much play. The steering has never felt right during my ownership and has only gotten mildly better with each attempt to remedy the problem, but I've yet to find the culprit. Any ideas?
If what you say is true and all of those things are new, with a good alignment, I would first check the balance of the steering valve.
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From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
O.K.
Brace yourself for this: Clamp the steering shaft below the "rag joint" and above the steering box with two pairs of vice-grip pliers so that the handles are propped against solid metal to prevent the shaft from rotating in either direction. While you are watching the shaft from the pliers upward toward the firewall----- Have someone GENTLY turn the steering wheel to the left until it stops...................then to the right until it stops.
How much left and right play did the steering wheel have?
Brace yourself for this: Clamp the steering shaft below the "rag joint" and above the steering box with two pairs of vice-grip pliers so that the handles are propped against solid metal to prevent the shaft from rotating in either direction. While you are watching the shaft from the pliers upward toward the firewall----- Have someone GENTLY turn the steering wheel to the left until it stops...................then to the right until it stops.
How much left and right play did the steering wheel have?
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,365
Likes: 0
From: Farmers Branch TX
Cruise-In VI Veteran
St. Jude Donor '09
O.K.
Brace yourself for this: Clamp the steering shaft below the "rag joint" and above the steering box with two pairs of vice-grip pliers so that the handles are propped against solid metal to prevent the shaft from rotating in either direction. While you are watching the shaft from the pliers upward toward the firewall----- Have someone GENTLY turn the steering wheel to the left until it stops...................then to the right until it stops.
How much left and right play did the steering wheel have?
Brace yourself for this: Clamp the steering shaft below the "rag joint" and above the steering box with two pairs of vice-grip pliers so that the handles are propped against solid metal to prevent the shaft from rotating in either direction. While you are watching the shaft from the pliers upward toward the firewall----- Have someone GENTLY turn the steering wheel to the left until it stops...................then to the right until it stops.
How much left and right play did the steering wheel have?
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
Possibly your problem is there.
Doorgunner's vicegrip test would tell you if the play is between the rag joint and the steering wheel, i.e., in the collapsible column.
Pete
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,423
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From: mount holly NC
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Maybe the cylinder not the PSCV.
Have you looked at the end of the PS cylinder, there are two rubber parts and a spacer between them.
If the rubbers are worn out you will get a lot of play at the wheel.
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb....Z5Z50000050~~~
If the rubbers are worn out you will get a lot of play at the wheel.
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb....Z5Z50000050~~~
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,001
Likes: 112
From: Saginaw Michigan
What year Vette? Also, you seem to imply that you have a standard (non-adjustable) type steering column? A tilt & telescoping steering column does have a couple more places (over the standard column) that could cause some looseness.
With the engine off, you will see additional play where the stud meets the control valve. That movement should basically disappear with the engine on. I am still thinking your problem is in the steering gear. On the top cover of the gear is a screw and lock nut. Are there any threads showing above the lock nut? A properly adjusted gear, (rebuilt with good or new parts) should have about three threads showing above the lock nut. If the screw is level with the nut (no threads showing) it means that parts are worn and the gear can no longer be adjusted to compensate.
Jim
With the engine off, you will see additional play where the stud meets the control valve. That movement should basically disappear with the engine on. I am still thinking your problem is in the steering gear. On the top cover of the gear is a screw and lock nut. Are there any threads showing above the lock nut? A properly adjusted gear, (rebuilt with good or new parts) should have about three threads showing above the lock nut. If the screw is level with the nut (no threads showing) it means that parts are worn and the gear can no longer be adjusted to compensate.
Jim
Last edited by Jim Shea; Aug 8, 2014 at 07:53 AM. Reason: better description
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,365
Likes: 0
From: Farmers Branch TX
Cruise-In VI Veteran
St. Jude Donor '09
O.K.
Brace yourself for this: Clamp the steering shaft below the "rag joint" and above the steering box with two pairs of vice-grip pliers so that the handles are propped against solid metal to prevent the shaft from rotating in either direction. While you are watching the shaft from the pliers upward toward the firewall----- Have someone GENTLY turn the steering wheel to the left until it stops...................then to the right until it stops.
How much left and right play did the steering wheel have?
Brace yourself for this: Clamp the steering shaft below the "rag joint" and above the steering box with two pairs of vice-grip pliers so that the handles are propped against solid metal to prevent the shaft from rotating in either direction. While you are watching the shaft from the pliers upward toward the firewall----- Have someone GENTLY turn the steering wheel to the left until it stops...................then to the right until it stops.
How much left and right play did the steering wheel have?
The steering column is made to collapse several inches in a collision. Do a search on here or check the factory service manual where it is fully described
Possibly your problem is there.
Doorgunner's vicegrip test would tell you if the play is between the rag joint and the steering wheel, i.e., in the collapsible column.
Pete
Possibly your problem is there.
Doorgunner's vicegrip test would tell you if the play is between the rag joint and the steering wheel, i.e., in the collapsible column.
Pete
Have you looked at the end of the PS cylinder, there are two rubber parts and a spacer between them.
If the rubbers are worn out you will get a lot of play at the wheel.
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb....Z5Z50000050~~~
If the rubbers are worn out you will get a lot of play at the wheel.
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb....Z5Z50000050~~~
What year Vette? Also, you seem to imply that you have a standard (non-adjustable) type steering column? A tilt & telescoping steering column does have a couple more places (over the standard column) that could cause some looseness.
With the engine off, you will see additional play where the stud meets the control valve. That movement should basically disappear with the engine on. I am still thinking your problem is in the steering gear. On the top cover of the gear is a screw and lock nut. Are there any threads showing above the lock nut? A properly adjusted gear, (rebuilt with good or new parts) should have about three threads showing above the lock nut. If the screw is level with the nut (no threads showing) it means that parts are worn and the gear can no longer be adjusted to compensate.
Jim
With the engine off, you will see additional play where the stud meets the control valve. That movement should basically disappear with the engine on. I am still thinking your problem is in the steering gear. On the top cover of the gear is a screw and lock nut. Are there any threads showing above the lock nut? A properly adjusted gear, (rebuilt with good or new parts) should have about three threads showing above the lock nut. If the screw is level with the nut (no threads showing) it means that parts are worn and the gear can no longer be adjusted to compensate.
Jim
Thanks to all for your input.
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Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,365
Likes: 0
From: Farmers Branch TX
Cruise-In VI Veteran
St. Jude Donor '09
The pitman arm is basically just cast metal, no wearable components, so it was reused. The idler arm was replaced during the suspension and steering rebuild with a Moog part.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 65,492
Likes: 230
From: Orange Park Florida
I remember going through all of the above some years ago, then I heard of a guy installing a rack in his car, a fellow in Europe, name of Yoshi as I recall.....so finally figgering out what rack he used, I got one from a '92 Grand Am 35 bux, junkyard find that was fresh to the car it was pulled out of, so I got a 'new one'......
I installed it and all the steering problems went away, the old setup has a lot of inherent slop in it, the box was tight, and the ratio was like 16-1 making 3.7 turns lock to lock.....the rack is 12-1 so 2.7 turns lock to lock....much quicker and tighter too boot.....I have a '78+ column in my '72 vert.....been there since '95...THAT was a fun rebuild project......NOT!!!!!
I installed it and all the steering problems went away, the old setup has a lot of inherent slop in it, the box was tight, and the ratio was like 16-1 making 3.7 turns lock to lock.....the rack is 12-1 so 2.7 turns lock to lock....much quicker and tighter too boot.....I have a '78+ column in my '72 vert.....been there since '95...THAT was a fun rebuild project......NOT!!!!!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,487
Likes: 83
From: Titusville Florida
Hi Jim, the car is a 1978, tilt and telescopic. The screw has about 6 threads showing above the locknut. It can be seen in the video above. The gears, bearings and bushings were replaced during the rebuild, which has about 500 miles on it now. The play on center at the box shown in the video results in about 1/16inch movement at the pitman arm, is this enough? Or should the input match the output movements?
Thanks to all for your input.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,001
Likes: 112
From: Saginaw Michigan
There are actually two bearing adjustments on the gear box. One is the screw and lock nut on the top cover. The other is a large stamped nut on the input shaft of the gear.
You should not see any detectable movement of the input shaft sliding in and out of the gear box housing as someone rotates the steering wheel back and forth. Any motion in and out will translate to lost motion at the steering wheel. This motion would mean that the thrust bearings are bad or the gear has been improperly adjusted.
The gear needs to be removed and readjusted by someone with an inch-lb torque wrench and other proper tools.
BTW, if you are going to play around with the top cover screw, you should make any changes by rotating the screw 1/4 turn - NOT full turns. Always make any changes with the road wheels pointing straight ahead and the gear right on center.
Jim
You should not see any detectable movement of the input shaft sliding in and out of the gear box housing as someone rotates the steering wheel back and forth. Any motion in and out will translate to lost motion at the steering wheel. This motion would mean that the thrust bearings are bad or the gear has been improperly adjusted.
The gear needs to be removed and readjusted by someone with an inch-lb torque wrench and other proper tools.
BTW, if you are going to play around with the top cover screw, you should make any changes by rotating the screw 1/4 turn - NOT full turns. Always make any changes with the road wheels pointing straight ahead and the gear right on center.
Jim
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,019
Likes: 1,119
From: North tonawanda NY
If the steering gear box is anything like the one on my dodge you DONT want to over adjust /tighten the screw that tightens gear mesh as it can cause the gear teeth to wear very quickly.