i really like the floating caliper design , it it seems to have the benefit of allowing for rotor runout and and seems to be a little less problem on the cars that i have dealt with, so iwas wondering if there is a cheap and easy retrofit for our cars that has a floating caliper design?

 

Fixed calipers are the better design. Fix the issue (rotor run out) instead of putting a band aid on it.

 

Floating calipers have only one advantage: they are cheap. They would handle a runout more worse than fixed calipers would do.

 

Floating calipers are inferior to a fixed "racing" style caliper like the C3's with 12 inch VENTED rotors, front and rear, AND 4 PISTON fixed calipers at every wheel, front and rear. Any car with serious brakes today has fixed multi piston calipers at each wheel, front and rear....don't go backwards with the brakes....The C3 brakes were way superior to other cars during the 60's, 70,s 80's and on par with many cars even today!The only way to improve on the C3 brake system is to go to a 13/14 inch front rotor with a willwood 6 piston front caliper and retaining the 12 rear with a 4 piston caliper. The cheapest and easiest way to improve the stock brakes is to use SS brake lines at each wheel and quality high performance brake pads. These brakes are really quite good!

The 2 most unique features of the C2/C3 vettes were the brakes and the IRS....no other GM car or other American cars at the time had either.

 

The stock configuration is one of the best out there. I'd fix what you have. I have aluminum fixed calipers using the stock rotors and can pull almost 1g in braking all day long.

However, if your dead set on changing to floating calipers VBP makes a C5 retrokit for about $1200 .... so for easy, yes .... inexpensive, not really. Plus I really doubt this improves anything, if it doesn't screw up the balance front to back, but it is an option for you.

 

The C3 brakes are more than adequate for street/strip applications. Where you would want to upgrade would be some serious road racing circuits with high speed sections.

I have HydroBoost and the brake are up to the top and I barely have to touch them to stop. I can't see any need for another setup, mine will stop the car, period.

 

 

I would fix what you have.

Here is some testing I did a few years back with the stock C3 brakes.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...results-2.html

I am now running with wilwood D8-4 and Carbotech CT8-XP10 pads with stoptec rotors.

Wilwood D8-4 due to problems with leaking stock new/rebuilt calipers. Carbotech pads for track days. But the wildwood pads work very well also.

 

Floating calipers are for economy $hitboxes

 

Well, like everyone else that has responded so far, I don't have an answer for you either, just a different opinion. If floating calipers were designed for econo-$hit boxes, they wouldn't be factory issued on a C5 Z06. You can try searching brake vendor websites, but I think you'll find them pretty expensive. If factory style aluminum calipers are available it would certainly reduce unsprung weight, and that would be a performance improvement right there.

Sorry it looks like you won't get any other help on the C3 forum.

 

Aha, I stand corrected. So they're for econo-$hit boxes and car manufacturers with a midlife crisis.


Wilwood D8-4

 

The C4 C5 and C6 have sliding caipers because they cost less. Those who race throw that garbage out for a fixed caliper. Sliding caliper flex and twist and cause bad pad taper. Fixed caliper are more reliable and stronger. The actual breaking performance is similar, but the fixed design will perform better for a longer period of time.

 

+1

People thinking that C3 brakes are anywhere near the performance of C5 brakes are crazy..

Between the 5 C2/C3s my dad and I have together, none of them have brakes that impress me.....Most of them are barely adequate for performance street driving, let alone any real track/auto cross driving...

I think members here would be quite shocked if they actually measured their car's stopping distance/braking performance....


FWIW... My "mid life crisis" C5Z can repeatedly stop on a dime, even without activating the ABS.... My C3 is lucky to lock up the front brakes with both feet on the pedal...And considering the brakes turn to mush after a handfull of back to back hard stops in canyon driving, its not even repeatable.

 

Most braking performance is in the tires -assuming your braking system is working as designed. I'm sure there's a way to mount sliding calipers if that's what you really want. It's just a matter of engineering the brackets. You'll have to add a proportioning valve since your car doesn't have one.

 

Why quote me on this? Your comments should be directed to the OP.

 

Holy Smokes! I always love when the C3 brake issue comes up. Where to start?

Please read my post #4 again for the technical highlights.

There are many factors that effect brake performance with Tires being a big component but by no means the only contributing factor. Other considerations are:

Weight of the vehicle
Suspension design
Brake swept area
Clamping force

As noted by others, a floating caliper is NOT the best design for brakes (cheaper and more reliable, less pistons to leak) due to the caliper flex, uneven brake pad wear, and uneven brake pressure on the rotor (piston side provides more force..physics). There is absolutely no way that 2 cars with the same tire and the same weight but one with a 2 piston floating caliper on a 12 inch rotor and the other with a 4/6 piston fixed caliper on the same rotor will have the same braking effect. The multi piston fixed caliper wins every time.

The C4 brakes were frankly crap so much so that GM had to introduce the "big brake option" in 1988. The C5 brakes are very good but for the reasons mentioned previously. BTW-The C5 base and Z06 brakes are exactly the same except for the red calipers...what is that?

There is not one high performance serious sports car or sedan today that uses floating calipers in front: Cadiallac CTS-V, Chevy SS, Porsche, Ferrari C6/C7 corvette, Mercedes AMG, Audi, Dodge Charger Daytona...Multi piston 4/6 piston Brembos/other...Now why is that? Looks?

The C6/C7 Z06/GS brakes with 6 piston front fixed calipers with 14/15 inch rotors and 4 piston fixed rear calipers with 13/14 inch rotors are FAR SUPERIOR to the C4/C5 brakes with floating/sliding flexing calipers and have much more in common with the C3 brakes system except for the unsprung weight from the iron material ( and heat sink absorption) of the C3 calipers. I will take a fixed multi piston caliper every day all day over a floating 2 pistons caliper and so does Formula 1 race cars, GT race cars, NASCAR, Indy car and others? Why is that? Its not because the fixed racing caliper is inferior to a floating caliper.

If your C3 brakes do not lock up with 1 heavy foot (not 2 feet) on the brake pedal, your brakes are not working correctly!!...period. I can lock my C3 brakes at will with 255/45/17 ZR ultra high performance summer only tires. If you have crap 15 inch Radial TA and such and still cannot lock your brakes up...stop driving the car now. The C3 brakes are not caddy brakes and require consistent linear pressure. Hydroboost and other band aids increase the feel of the power brake system but will not increase the clamping force of the basic system.. I recently drove a ford fusion rental car for work and nearly put my head through the windshield the first time I tapped the brakes...They have a powerful brake booster but that effect tells you nothing about the effectiveness of the brakes..nothing.

Lastly, someone asked about brake stopping differences. Stopping distances for a C5 from 80 MPH are about 215 feet (pretty good) but try that from 150 mph repeatedly with the C5 brakes and see what happens (want to guess if the C5R had floating front calipers?). My 78 at 3,500 lbs from the factory (currently about 3,200 lbs) braked from 80 mph in 244 feet in 1978 (with crap tires and organic brake pads) compared to a Porsche 930 turbo at 239 feet and Ferrari 512 boxer at 252 feet; difference of 29 feet versus the C5. Get both cars to the same weight with the same tire and the same pad material, I would bet the C3 would at least equal the C5 from that speed. Put some great tires, brake pads, and SS brake lines on a C3 and you have great brakes! Even better is the 6 piston Wilwood front caliper and 14 inch rotor on the C3..that combo would smoke a C5 brake system, hands down. Most cars can brake well from 60 MPH, less as the speed increases to 80 mph, a fraction from 120 MPH..it is from the much higher speeds that brake system weaknesses really will be displayed. Brake a C5 from 150 mph compared to a C6Z06 with 6 piston Fixed racing caliper/14 inch drilled rotors and rear 4 piston fixed racing caliper/13 inch drilled rotor and the result favoring the C6Z06 would be devastating.....

 

Here's some data. I have a modified system using aluminum calipers in the stock configuration (stock piston bore size, NO hydroboost, stock rotor dia., etc.). 1+ g's lap after lap using street/strip brake pads and 2" brake cooling ducts. These #'s occurred while decelerating from ~120 to 70 mph at the end of a straight.

 

That is some good info.... Still using a manual, stock type master cylinder?

Pretty impressive performance there. You definitely have the stock system figured out..

After dumping thousands into the stock brakes on my 71', and its still basically crap, I'd like to revamp the system, however I want to keep the stock wheels so I'm limited...

I've been through 3 sets of calipers(all from name brand vendors here), 3 master-cylinders (manual), all new hard lines, Ts, distribution block, pads/rotors, playing with run out etc etc..They still pretty much suck. After about half way through the "Tail of the Dragon" the brake light was coming on, pedal was mush and almost on the floor and made for a pretty interesting ride... I made 4 trips through the dragon and it seemed to get worse each time... Once it would cool down, it would half *** stop ok again but....I don't trust them.

I've bled them more ways then you can possibly count (pressure, vacuum, manual, gravity etc etc), even had a local Resto/Performance shop have a stab at it, they installed another MC, bled them for 2 days etc...right before I left for the dragon...wasted $500 in labor there.. Never had this kind of brake problem on any other type of car, even my other C2/C3s were slightly better then this one.

 

Jason,

Those numbers are awesome for any street car braking from 120 MPH!!! A few questions since I will be going on the road course soon with my C3 (my 10 C6Z06 is and will be the track car) at Club motorsports park not too far from me next year. I am assuming that you are referring to the aluminum Wilwoods for the calipers (4 or 6 piston?). What brake pad do you use (I currently use Performance Friction Carbon Metallics)? and do you have more specifics about how you are running the 2 inch brake cooling ducts? Thanks

BTW-those brake numbers are C6Z06 territory AND this months Road and Track about the 2017 C7 Grand Sport have these brake comments and facts !!:

Front: 15.5 inch vented 6 piston fixed caliper
Rear: 15.3 inch vented 4 piston fixed caliper
Tires: Michelin Pilot Supersport Cup 2-285/30/19 ZR, 335/225/20 ZR

Test notes: "unbelievably strong brakes. The 60-0 MPH distance matches the 2001 C5R Le Mans Racer"

Braking:

60-0 MPH-96 ft
80-0 MPH- 167 ft

No G braking for the Supersport Cup2 tires (race tire on the street) BUT with the regular Super Sports the G's for the C7 GS are 1.05g! Same as your figures!!

Just demonstrates how good the C3 brake system design is 40+ years onward....pretty impressive!

 

If you don´t have power brakes this could be true.
With power brakes I had no issues to lock up all 4 wheels.
(and you need the right pads as well)

The brakes are powerfull, no doubt, but the feeling could be better.
Maybe this has to do with the small rotors.
My ´05 Merc with a big brake feels much better.
But I also have a ´90 Merc with a smaller brake than the C3. Feeling is better in normal dirving, until you need to stop harder. Then it breaks down.