Electronic ignition
02-24-2018, 09:34 AM
#21
Race Director
In the old days I would hear people cracking their engine for 10-15 seconds before it caught. I waved them to stop. Open their Hood pop the cap opened up the points Gap close the lid and the engine started in three cranks. Free tune-up.
02-24-2018, 10:40 AM
#23
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As a professional Reliability Engineer, I would have to disagree with the idea that an electronic ignition is more "reliable". As a professional ignition module/ECM/PCM design engineer, I would have to say, it depends. If you buy some cheap shitty designed Chinese stuff you're just rolling the dice. If you buy something designed by guys who know WTF they're doing, these things are incredibly reliable. If you put an electronic ignition on a test bench, you can run up a huge number of cycles with no problem. But that's not how it will be used on the vehicle.
It will sit idle most of the time. When in use it will experience temperature swings from ambient to about 300*F (engine heat AND exhaust heat) during each "use" cycle, plus damp conditions, etc. And it will have to repeat this "process" for years. A properly designed module is built to withstand the conditions, with internal circuitry that is certified by the parts manufacturer to work reliably at those temperatures. Aftermarket parts, who knows. Toss your dice again.
When an electronic box fails, IT QUITS! No 'limp home' mode. Nonsense. There's a hundred different failure modes in an electronic circuit. One is certainly non-operation. In my pre-engineering youth I put an aftermarket electronic ignition system on my '69 (in an effort to get some decent plug life with my engine). It ran fine for several years, and then would start to misfire under heavier loads. Starting and lighter loads were just fine. No limp in the limp-home mode. I couldn't repair the box, as it was all epoxy filled, so I wired an HEI module in its place. It's been running flawlessly for decades now.
When points begin to wear/degrade, you can operate the car just fine...it may miss a bit at higher rpm's, but that's what tells you the points need cleaning/adjustment/replacement. In 30 minutes you can install new points/dwell and condenser. I don't know if I've spent thirty minutes on my ignition system in decades.
When I drive, I consider "reliability" to mean that my car will get me there and get me back--without significant issue. Electronic ignitions are great....as long as they are working.
Pretty much anything on our antiques is great, as long as it works.
P.S. If I NEEDED an electronic ignition (racing, etc.), I would install one. If I just need it for normal use, I'd stay with points.
It will sit idle most of the time. When in use it will experience temperature swings from ambient to about 300*F (engine heat AND exhaust heat) during each "use" cycle, plus damp conditions, etc. And it will have to repeat this "process" for years. A properly designed module is built to withstand the conditions, with internal circuitry that is certified by the parts manufacturer to work reliably at those temperatures. Aftermarket parts, who knows. Toss your dice again.
When an electronic box fails, IT QUITS! No 'limp home' mode. Nonsense. There's a hundred different failure modes in an electronic circuit. One is certainly non-operation. In my pre-engineering youth I put an aftermarket electronic ignition system on my '69 (in an effort to get some decent plug life with my engine). It ran fine for several years, and then would start to misfire under heavier loads. Starting and lighter loads were just fine. No limp in the limp-home mode. I couldn't repair the box, as it was all epoxy filled, so I wired an HEI module in its place. It's been running flawlessly for decades now.
When points begin to wear/degrade, you can operate the car just fine...it may miss a bit at higher rpm's, but that's what tells you the points need cleaning/adjustment/replacement. In 30 minutes you can install new points/dwell and condenser. I don't know if I've spent thirty minutes on my ignition system in decades.
When I drive, I consider "reliability" to mean that my car will get me there and get me back--without significant issue. Electronic ignitions are great....as long as they are working.
Pretty much anything on our antiques is great, as long as it works.P.S. If I NEEDED an electronic ignition (racing, etc.), I would install one. If I just need it for normal use, I'd stay with points.
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Big2Bird (02-24-2018)
02-24-2018, 10:46 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
I can see the dick swinging contest is back in full force here. How about we stick to the topic of the OP. If you guys want to have a pointless argument about who is bigger...oh, I mean correct about thermal insulators, electrical insulators, and **** you may as well add a cyclical engine oil 'discussion' to the mix, take it to a separate thread that I can immediately ignore.
To the OP: I am personally going with a HEI unit as it is easier to manage (no points to gap, timing changes, etc) and despite what some folks here may have you believe, it is far more reliable. The benefits of HEI over points is a well documented topic, feel free to google yourself and it becomes readily apparent.
To the OP: I am personally going with a HEI unit as it is easier to manage (no points to gap, timing changes, etc) and despite what some folks here may have you believe, it is far more reliable. The benefits of HEI over points is a well documented topic, feel free to google yourself and it becomes readily apparent.
02-24-2018, 10:52 AM
#25
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BigBird, I disagree with your disagree. Do you agree?
Heat Sink compound IS an insulator used on electrical componets. Google It! It is to draw some heat away from the modge thereby insulating, quote-unquote.
And MSD web site says only the modge is made in China. I know-I know. I have that same MSD box out in my garage. Go figure?
Heat Sink compound IS an insulator used on electrical componets. Google It! It is to draw some heat away from the modge thereby insulating, quote-unquote.
And MSD web site says only the modge is made in China. I know-I know. I have that same MSD box out in my garage. Go figure?
In an HEI distributor, heat sink compound is used on the bottom backplate of the module to improve heat conduction from the module to the distributor housing, which is the lower temperature heatsink mass.
Listen to Big2Bird, he won't steer you wrong.
02-24-2018, 10:56 AM
#26
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Aug 2017
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Heat Sink Compound: Apply under your module for heat insulating properties.
Dielectric Grease: Conducts electrical passage, apply to tail light & other bulb bases.
Two different products. Often confusion between the two.
Not applying one, makes it difficult to remove corroded bulbs.
Not applying the other, may leave you stranded on the side of the road.
Dielectric Grease: Conducts electrical passage, apply to tail light & other bulb bases.
Two different products. Often confusion between the two.
Not applying one, makes it difficult to remove corroded bulbs.
Not applying the other, may leave you stranded on the side of the road.
Last edited by HeadsU.P.; 02-24-2018 at 04:12 PM.
02-24-2018, 03:20 PM
#27
Race Director
Post 11. I am not putting electronic ignition down. Built 2 motors for my 2 boats. Both are using large cap HEI with vac deleted. BUT, the OP has a running, driving, period-correct, paid-for points setup. I don't see any justification for changing over to electronic.
Last edited by derekderek; 02-24-2018 at 03:33 PM.
02-24-2018, 03:50 PM
#28
Dr. Detroit
Member Since: Mar 2012
Location: New Braunfels Texas
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I built a 69' Olds 350 not long ago with a friend.......he wanted to learn how to build an engine.
When he got it in the car, he called and said it was ready to go but did not know how to set the points.......I drove over with my Sears "engine analyzer" that I have had since the 80's and set the dwell.....that and setting the timing surprised the hell out of me as it ran silky smooth, great response and lots of smooth power accelerating.....points are a miracle of a thing really.....but they have serious drawbacks when you start adding power.....plus they may burn if you leave the key on......
That Olds maybe put 225 to the tire and the points were fine for it.
I run MSD stuff because of the ease of setting up the advance curve and the box to keep the plugs clean with big cams......
I have a Mallory distributor in my own Vette mostly because it came with the car and it is small....making accessibility around it much better and the fitting ignition shielding is easier should I want to....but the Mallory is a pain to set the curve on as the mechanism is below the top plate.....which requires pulling the whole darn thing apart.
The Mallory has a history of unreliability that is unfounded because the problem was mostly attributed to people not using a ballast resistor when not using a box. The box takes care of the need for it. I run a MSD 6AL on the Mallory and it is a stone. This is on a 500 horsepower 406. A box is extremely reliable if the power sources they have are clean......without spikes. I have yet to have a box of my own fail in the ownership of about a dozen of them.
I like the setup on my Vette as the Mallory has an internal module.....in the event of my box failing, I just rewire to non-box configuration. A nice fail safe
I do not like HEI unit because of the size and the curve on the $80 Chinese units. MSD makes an HEI that is the bomb dot com....but at close to $500 I'll pass.......although it does have an adjustable module.
Never held a Davis DUI in my hand......sounds promising from reviews but too big for me.
You can also convert your stock unit to an electronic, I had a Mallory conversion on my 427/400 with a hot coil and it ran great and started up quickly......
Lots of choices but to me.....small and easy is the way I go usually.....I like the MSD 85551.
Jebby
When he got it in the car, he called and said it was ready to go but did not know how to set the points.......I drove over with my Sears "engine analyzer" that I have had since the 80's and set the dwell.....that and setting the timing surprised the hell out of me as it ran silky smooth, great response and lots of smooth power accelerating.....points are a miracle of a thing really.....but they have serious drawbacks when you start adding power.....plus they may burn if you leave the key on......
That Olds maybe put 225 to the tire and the points were fine for it.
I run MSD stuff because of the ease of setting up the advance curve and the box to keep the plugs clean with big cams......
I have a Mallory distributor in my own Vette mostly because it came with the car and it is small....making accessibility around it much better and the fitting ignition shielding is easier should I want to....but the Mallory is a pain to set the curve on as the mechanism is below the top plate.....which requires pulling the whole darn thing apart.
The Mallory has a history of unreliability that is unfounded because the problem was mostly attributed to people not using a ballast resistor when not using a box. The box takes care of the need for it. I run a MSD 6AL on the Mallory and it is a stone. This is on a 500 horsepower 406. A box is extremely reliable if the power sources they have are clean......without spikes. I have yet to have a box of my own fail in the ownership of about a dozen of them.
I like the setup on my Vette as the Mallory has an internal module.....in the event of my box failing, I just rewire to non-box configuration. A nice fail safe
I do not like HEI unit because of the size and the curve on the $80 Chinese units. MSD makes an HEI that is the bomb dot com....but at close to $500 I'll pass.......although it does have an adjustable module.
Never held a Davis DUI in my hand......sounds promising from reviews but too big for me.
You can also convert your stock unit to an electronic, I had a Mallory conversion on my 427/400 with a hot coil and it ran great and started up quickly......
Lots of choices but to me.....small and easy is the way I go usually.....I like the MSD 85551.
Jebby
02-24-2018, 08:15 PM
#29
As a professional Reliability Engineer, I would have to disagree with the idea that an electronic ignition is more "reliable". If you put an electronic ignition on a test bench, you can run up a huge number of cycles with no problem. But that's not how it will be used on the vehicle.
It will sit idle most of the time. When in use it will experience temperature swings from ambient to about 300*F (engine heat AND exhaust heat) during each "use" cycle, plus damp conditions, etc. And it will have to repeat this "process" for years.
When an electronic box fails, IT QUITS! No 'limp home' mode.
When points begin to wear/degrade, you can operate the car just fine...it may miss a bit at higher rpm's, but that's what tells you the points need cleaning/adjustment/replacement. In 30 minutes you can install new points/dwell and condenser.
When I drive, I consider "reliability" to mean that my car will get me there and get me back--without significant issue. Electronic ignitions are great....as long as they are working.
P.S. If I NEEDED an electronic ignition (racing, etc.), I would install one. If I just need it for normal use, I'd stay with points.
It will sit idle most of the time. When in use it will experience temperature swings from ambient to about 300*F (engine heat AND exhaust heat) during each "use" cycle, plus damp conditions, etc. And it will have to repeat this "process" for years.
When an electronic box fails, IT QUITS! No 'limp home' mode.
When points begin to wear/degrade, you can operate the car just fine...it may miss a bit at higher rpm's, but that's what tells you the points need cleaning/adjustment/replacement. In 30 minutes you can install new points/dwell and condenser.
When I drive, I consider "reliability" to mean that my car will get me there and get me back--without significant issue. Electronic ignitions are great....as long as they are working.
P.S. If I NEEDED an electronic ignition (racing, etc.), I would install one. If I just need it for normal use, I'd stay with points.
02-25-2018, 01:25 PM
#30
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Nov 2003
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Not me!!! I agree with 69427. 
He knows of what he speaks.....err I mean types. 
Now please don't take me wrong here, Reliability Engineers have played an important part in keeping us electronics design engineers honest. But if we weren't capable of constructive dialogue, we wouldn't be enjoying the level of electronic technology we enjoy today.. It is important that the dialogue we have on this forum has the opportunity to take place so information can be clarified, and/or improved no matter the size of our manhood. Unfortunately my wife has tried to convince me over the years that size doesn't matter. 
Bullshark
02-25-2018, 02:42 PM
#31
Advanced
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the replies, after reading them all and speaking to other people over the weekend I've decided to stick with the original points set up for now.
Nick
Nick
Last edited by Nicky B; 02-25-2018 at 02:42 PM.