Exploring options for upgrading the engine. Currently I have Dart Pro1 180cc heads and I am considering building a 383 (or buying a short block). Would like to know if the 180cc heads are considered too small for a 383? It looks like most 383's you see come with 195cc heads. Just would like to know if it makes any sense to use the Darts or not - I would like to if possible. Thanks.

Edit: Dart website says the 180's are good for 327 - 400 CI engines

 

Probably going to get more questions as to my goals for the project. More power … lol. And it seems like everyone recommends going to a 383 if you're doing a rebuild anyways. So looking for a great street motor with plenty of low and mid range power. Occasional run down the drag strip. Probably around 9.5 - 10 to one compression. Not sure if I have the budget for any of this yet but the heads are a big part. I figure if I could reuse them, that would be a big expense I could save. I guess the other option is using them for now and later upgrade to 195's if needed.

 

I'm no 383 expert but when i bought my AFR 180s, their website had several dyno sheets for 383's using the 180 heads -- just dont expect 500+hp and a 7000 RPM redline.
Sort of the reason i bought the AFRs = could reuse if i ever went 383 in the future............................not a monster 383 but your Dart Pro 1's should work

 

So yes your heads would be ok with a 383, they flow 250 CFM at .50" lift, which is enough to support roughly 500 hp. Someone with more knowledge can weigh in, but I would think at high RPM those 180cc heads could start choking a bigger motor like a 383.

My advice would be "go big or go home". If you get a really basic short block with similar compression and cam size to what you have now, all you are getting is the extra 33 cubic inches. So maybe 30 or so hp over what you currently have, not worth the $2000 short block in my opinion. I would aim for 10.5:1 compression, hydraulic roller cam, 6" rods. I would definitely go for the Roller cam in this case. You could conceivably have a 450-475 hp 383 with those heads in my opinion.

Plus the advantage of a better piston design over you current dished cast pistons, and better crank design.

This would give you the option to have your heads ported later (maybe open them up to 190+cc to take advantage of the larger displacement) or sell your heads and get something bigger down the line.

 

Could be your 180 cc heads already are at 190+ cc's knowing how dart Likes to cast them larger than advertised.
so they'll probably work just fine. Might chop off 300 rpm at the top, but maybe not.

i would cc the heads you got and see where they're at.

 

You could build a pretty stout 383 with those heads. No it won't feed it a 7000 RPM plus, but if you put the right combination together it will run pretty hard. I would shoot for 10.5 compression with a nice tight quench, .035" to .040", and a hydraulic roller cam with duration in the mid 230's. Put a Performer RPM Air Gap intake with a 750 DP, long tube 1 3/4" headers into 2.5" exhaust with free flowing mufflers, and have it tuned properly. I think you should be in the high 400's, maybe even 500 horse.

Mike

 

Brodix 180 heads went onto my 383 and I got plenty of input on that before I made the purchase. Torque is certainly not a problem for it around town and as you stated, it depends on your goals. But, the heads work very well for me, I also don't have a really aggressive cam, only .5 lift. HP is about 425 which is fine with me until I do something about the weak link aluminum rear in my 80. If you have a capable rear, I would consider 195 heads with a more aggressive cam.

 

Since you already have those heads, use them on the 383 and spend the money elsewhere. I have mildly ported Vortec heads on my 383 and with a hyd. roller 225/232 duration, .535/.550 lift cam it has run 12.15 at 110. Tremendous bottom end and mid range power.

 

x2 Dont know why the f Dart does that!
I have a pair of Conquest 200s, they poured damn near 220!! If Id only have known back then-Jim if you did the right work on those and only removed very little material you can have a rockin street head. Or if you want a killer deal on some AFRs, pm tpi421vette talk to Jim.

 

Great answers - thanks all. That answers that question.

 

The correct formula for determining how big of cylinder head you need:
MIN CSA = (bore x bore x stroke x RPM x .00353) / 613.8 (.55 MACH x 1116 fps)

• SBC 350 Version: 6,000 RPM peak
  • Min CSA= (4.0" x 4.0" x 3.48" x 6,000 RPM x 0.00353) /613.8
  • 1,179.3 / 613.8
  • 1.92" Min CSA
• SBC 383 Version: 6,000 RPM peak
  • Min CSA= (4.03" x 4.03" x 3.75" x 6,000 RPM x 0.00353) / 613.8
  • 1290/613.8
  • 2.1" Min CSA (Profiler 195cc Actual per Chad Speier: 2.15"; same as AFR 195 Comp)

Sizing based upon the min CSA is better than the advertised size; to avoid choking a 383 @ 6,000 RPM you should have a 2.1" min CSA. Many of the top shelf 195cc heads happen to have a min CSA right near 2.1", which is why you see a lot of 383s using them.
-If you can find the min CSA of the Dart Pro1 180cc head, we can work backward and figure out the theoretical RPM at which you'd stop making more power on a 383...
The formula also highlights if you want a 383 that keeps making power beyond 6,000 RPM, you need to step up to a bigger head. (it also highlights that if you pick a cam that makes power beyond 6,000 RPM on a 383 with the Dart Pro1 180cc head, you're giving up low end torque via a reduction in DCR without gaining anything on the top-end as the heads just won't make more power beyond 6,000 RPM; it sets a nice safe upper-limit for cam selection.)

Edit: Here's the same calculation as above implemented as a web-based calculator tool on the Wallace Racing Site: http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint-rpm.php


Bonus calculations: Once you have the min CSA for your head you can calculate the max air velocity through the port by going to the airflow chart for your heads and plugging in the intake flow @ your cam's intake lobe's max lift and plugging that into the velocity formula ("FPS = (CFM * 2.4 ) / CSA") playing with this calculation will highlight the really good heads. -You can compare several heads of roughly the same min CSA and then compare the airflow- the better heads have more airflow in the same min CSA (and therefore more velocity / port speed and therefore more average torque). You'll also see some interesting examples where going to a larger head will get you more airflow at roughly the same velocity than smaller head (more top-end power for very little reduction in low-end torque). The Profiler 195cc vs. 210cc heads are a great example. The 210cc flows quite a bit more air than the 195cc but with a relatively small increase in Min CSA - the average and max velocities are roughly the same between the two heads but the 210cc just flows more air. I wish I would've done this calculation before buying my 195cc Profilers and I may have stepped up a size.

-Specific application to your combo: I expect that the Dart Pro1 "180cc heads (actually 190cc)" won't be far off from a 2.1" min CSA; you can then do the FPS calculation and compare it to some other heads near the same min CSA. -You'll find the newest generation of heads flow up to +25CFM vs. the original Dart Pro1's with roughly the same min CSA (assuming yours flow 250CFM as previously posted on here). Using the old-school super rough calculation of 1 CFM = 2 HP, there's a potential 50 HP left on the table with those heads vs. something new. Because the new generation of heads max that extra CFM at nearly the same min CSA the newer heads will have better average torque, too.

Like many have said they're really great one generation old heads that can be really good on a 383 if you run them, but if you can sell them for $600 and buy new Profiler 195cc heads for another +$400 and gain +25 CFM / +50 HP is that gain worth it to you?


Adam

 

I have World 2.02 head's on my 383. There supposed to be good street heads.

 

This is a good point. Dart has had this happen with a couple over their castings, where customers have had them CC'ed and found out they were bigger than advertised. I don't know what castings this affected, but you might google around and see if it's yours! Almost makes sense since those are some REALLY good flow numbers (I see 257 CFM at .50") for an as-cast head with only a 180 cc runner.

 

I have Dart Pro1 180 heads and have run them for a number of years on my CFI 383 and they have worked just fine. However, after this recent rebuild of my 383 which was a bit more aggressive I went with the AFR Eliminator 195 heads and am very happy with the results so far and motor pulls real hard in mid range and high end. My CR went from 9.8 to 10.7 with the rebuild and a much larger cam with .612 @ .050 that works just fine for what I have. The AFR heads have a slightly larger intake valve, Dart 2.02, AFR 2.05 which is what I wanted with the new motor. Now, if I can straighten out my ECM issues with my IACs which looks like ditching the Ostrich interface and going to EBL Flash will be the fix after talking with rBob, I look forward to some good racing this winter in AZ.

 

.Their latest 200 pours fairly accurately, most can be off by a few even factory heads.
imo a decent 180 head for a mild 383 that isnt spun to the moon is fine.

 

I didn't want to go over board on my first 383 build. I also spent a lot of time using engine similation programs

They show you how higher cfm heads can use less cam to attain the same power level. That is why I bought 227 cc heads for my 383

180 might be acceptable for what you are trying to do
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https://m.harborfreight.com/electric...aft-44141.html. These are aluminum heads. It is very easy to do Port work on them. This die grinder will do the trick real good. Stay away from the valve seats. But when they using Cutters for aluminum even if you touch him you're probably not going to cut them up too bad. by the cutters from someplace other than Harbor Freight. Welding supply stores have small ones, eBay, amazon. there are a lot of YouTube videos about what to and not to remove out of small block Chevy ports.

 

The I use a 30cc $4 Walmart flavor shooter for cc'ing combustion Chambers and ports. It's designed for shooting broth and such into a chicken or a roast, but it works good for shooting water into a cylinder head. And it's an accurate little bugger.

 

The 180's will work excellent on the street. I am an advocate of using a bit smaller head than what is normally considered as acceptable on my engines for myself and my customers........and the reason is to keep port velocity high. This makes for a snappy, easy to tune engine that has killer mid-range power. A big head will ultimately make more power......but it will not do everything better. This thinking is somewhat negated when using EFI. Keeping port velocity high signal the carb much more definitely and consistently going in and out of the throttle....which is what we do on the street

Jebby

 

x2 Same with the carb, too.Like to use the smallest one possible that still doesnt puke in the rpm band I like.
Most 350s never need more than a good 650 cfm carb.....had a 10:1 350 once with an ISky 280 mega, Holley 300-36 headers nothing fancy
For starters it ran better wiht the 462s than it did a big set of Darts..the Darts were only better over 5k.
It had a few 750s on it DP and VS just never felt quite right. Put a known good 650 DP on it that car came alive, throttle response was on point and would light them up real easy. Sometimes less is more.
Wasnt big power but sure was fun to drive.