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Moog k6104 offset arm questions/help

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Old Aug 25, 2018 | 07:54 AM
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Default Moog k6104 offset arm questions/help

Hi, after the Borgeson steering upgrade, I’m trying to get more caster, and have ordered a pair of moog offset control arm shafts. Can anyone explain a couple of things please?

If I install the offset shaft, with the same shims as the old shafts, how will this effect the caster? And camber?

Ive read posts on slotting the shafts and pushing the arm rearward 1/4”, how much extra caster would this add?

Any other help would would be great.

We don’t have the alignment shops in the U.K. to deal with c3’s and I’m fairly confident the front setup is currently at standard settings, due to the previous owner having a shop replace the front springs, dampers and all bushings.

Thanks, tim.
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Old Aug 25, 2018 | 10:23 AM
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Just changing the shafts would make the camber either more positive or more negative, depending on which way you put the offset. In other words, it would just move the ball joint in or out by whatever the arm offset is - maybe 1/4" or so?

To change camber, you have to remove shims from the front bolt and put them onto the back bolt. Say you currently have almost no shims on the front bolt. Once you install the shafts with the offset towards the outside (moves the bushings towards the outside) you have to add the same number of shims as the offset, say 1/4", to correct the camber. You now have 1/4" of shims on the front bolt that you can move to the back bolt to increase the caster.

If you have lots of shims on both bolts to the point you're running out of bolt length, then you put the shafts with the offset towards the engine (move the bushings towards the engine) so you can remove some of the shims from both bolts. Then, moving more of the shims from the front bolt to the back bolt will increase caster.
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Old Aug 25, 2018 | 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by lionelhutz
Just changing the shafts would make the camber either more positive or more negative, depending on which way you put the offset. In other words, it would just move the ball joint in or out by whatever the arm offset is - maybe 1/4" or so?

To change camber, you have to remove shims from the front bolt and put them onto the back bolt. Say you currently have almost no shims on the front bolt. Once you install the shafts with the offset towards the outside (moves the bushings towards the outside) you have to add the same number of shims as the offset, say 1/4", to correct the camber. You now have 1/4" of shims on the front bolt that you can move to the back bolt to increase the caster.

If you have lots of shims on both bolts to the point you're running out of bolt length, then you put the shafts with the offset towards the engine (move the bushings towards the engine) so you can remove some of the shims from both bolts. Then, moving more of the shims from the front bolt to the back bolt will increase caster.
Excellent explanation, makes perfect sense.

My right shaft currently has no shims on the front, so adding the offset shaft, with offset towards the outside will give me 1/4” of shims to play with, moving them to the back, which I believe works out at 3deg from another post I’ve read? Each 1/8” shim moved from front to back is around 1.5deg caster.

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Old Aug 26, 2018 | 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitty
Hi, after the Borgeson steering upgrade, I’m trying to get more caster, and have ordered a pair of moog offset control arm shafts. Can anyone explain a couple of things please?

If I install the offset shaft, with the same shims as the old shafts, how will this effect the caster? And camber?

Ive read posts on slotting the shafts and pushing the arm rearward 1/4”, how much extra caster would this add?

Any other help would would be great.

We don’t have the alignment shops in the U.K. to deal with c3’s and I’m fairly confident the front setup is currently at standard settings, due to the previous owner having a shop replace the front springs, dampers and all bushings.

Thanks, tim.
Are you adding caster to help with the very light steering using the "Borges on steering upgrade" I would first look at fixing the real problem first.

Reduce the power steering pump flow and make sure the power steering pump is in the correct range.

Power steering 900 PSI or less and replace the current flow control valve with one the provides additional flow restriction.

Read this
https://www.turnone-steering.com/blo...him-kit-theory

there are 2 options to help. 1 shim-kit to reduce pressure. 2 flow restrictor.

Last edited by cagotzmann; Aug 26, 2018 at 01:46 PM.
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Old Aug 26, 2018 | 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cagotzmann
Are you adding caster to help with the very light steering using the "Borges on steering upgrade" I would first look at fixing the real problem first.

Reduce the power steering pump flow and make sure the power steering pump is in the correct range.

Power steering 900 PSI or less and replace the current flow control valve with one the provides additional flow restriction.

Read this
https://www.turnone-steering.com/blo...him-kit-theory

there are 2 options to help. 1 shim-kit to reduce pressure. 2 flow restrictor.
Hi, yes it’s a little light on the steering, wonders about a bit. As the Borgeson kit replaces the control valve for one without hydraulic connections, and the rams removed, as the new Delphi 600 box is power assisted, I guess the only option is to fit a flow reducer in the line. But, won’t this just make the steering heavier, and still wonder down the road, where extra caster will keep the car naturally straight, and add extra weight to the steering?


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Old Aug 26, 2018 | 11:55 PM
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hey Mitty, check out our thread

Looking like 6-8* of + caster

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-a-arms-8.html

you'd still be way ahead to buy this kit for 279.99usd and not use the lowers, have them machined and bam... enough + caster to run 300+ km/h

also, as to the "wandering" whats your toe set at? i'd double check it, take a tape measure to a point on the tire treads, go from tire to tire in front, then in the rear of the same tires, that will get you really close, if it's not not within 1.6mm you need to have it re-set

Last edited by naramlee; Aug 27, 2018 at 12:11 AM.
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Old Aug 27, 2018 | 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitty


Hi, yes it’s a little light on the steering, wonders about a bit. As the Borgeson kit replaces the control valve for one without hydraulic connections, and the rams removed, as the new Delphi 600 box is power assisted, I guess the only option is to fit a flow reducer in the line. But, won’t this just make the steering heavier, and still wonder down the road, where extra caster will keep the car naturally straight, and add extra weight to the steering?


When the steering is light "r&P or borgeson" the cars seem to wonder more because its so easy to power steer with no effort. Drive a C6 corvette and see how heavy the steering is and try and duplicate this in a C3 is not easy. Once you have the power assist reduced enough (similar to a C6) then you will see factory 2.75 caster vs 6 degree caster only is noticeable when you exit a corner. The steering centers much easier. As for wondering I would check you have a balance left vs right side for alignment (caster / camber) the same left vs right. The rear thrust angle is ~ 0.01 and suspension parts are tight with ball joints / tie rods etc.
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Old Aug 27, 2018 | 06:01 PM
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Hi, thanks for the info guys, I think the flow restriction is a good option, it is really light, my wife’s fiat 500 abarth is heavier!
Looking at the toe, it looks to be ok. I’ll install the offset shafts, dial in a little more caster and see how the car feels.

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Old Aug 27, 2018 | 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitty
Hi, after the Borgeson steering upgrade, I’m trying to get more caster, and have ordered a pair of moog offset control arm shafts. Can anyone explain a couple of things please?

If I install the offset shaft, with the same shims as the old shafts, how will this effect the caster? And camber?

Ive read posts on slotting the shafts and pushing the arm rearward 1/4”, how much extra caster would this add?

Any other help would would be great.

We don’t have the alignment shops in the U.K. to deal with c3’s and I’m fairly confident the front setup is currently at standard settings, due to the previous owner having a shop replace the front springs, dampers and all bushings.

Thanks, tim.
IMHO, having just gone through the whole offset shaft and slotting them to try and get more positive caster (most I could get doing that was +2.5) if I had to do it all over, I would just replace the upper control arms with arms that have more caster built in. May want to check this thread out:https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ar-a-arms.html
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Old Aug 27, 2018 | 07:51 PM
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You can buy a kit to adjust the valve on the outlet of the PS pump. It's not very expensive.

The C6 has variable assist so the system lowers the assist at speed and then raises it when going slow so the car can be turned easily at slow speeds.
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Old Aug 28, 2018 | 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sunflower 1972
IMHO, having just gone through the whole offset shaft and slotting them to try and get more positive caster (most I could get doing that was +2.5) if I had to do it all over, I would just replace the upper control arms with arms that have more caster built in. May want to check this thread out:https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ar-a-arms.html
Very interesting read, that does look like a good option, and not a bad price. I’ve ordered the moog shafts now, so I’ll see how they fair first.
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Old Aug 28, 2018 | 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by lionelhutz
You can buy a kit to adjust the valve on the outlet of the PS pump. It's not very expensive.

The C6 has variable assist so the system lowers the assist at speed and then raises it when going slow so the car can be turned easily at slow speeds.
Hi, yes I need to contact turn one and order one. It’s literally just an insert with a different size hole isn’t it?
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Old Aug 28, 2018 | 11:27 AM
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Yes - the flow restrictor has a smaller hole to reduce flow.
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Old Aug 28, 2018 | 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitty


Hi, yes I need to contact turn one and order one. It’s literally just an insert with a different size hole isn’t it?
The pressure line fitting adapter in the back of the pump has the orifice that controls flow. The valve behind it controls pressure.

Here is details on the valve. This talks about increasing flow and pressure, but you just do the opposite.

http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articl...rsteeringmods/

Here is an example fitting to reduce flow or try a fitting for using the Saginaw pump with a Ford rack.

https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...cv-k/overview/
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/60791/10002/-1

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Old Aug 28, 2018 | 01:36 PM
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I also bought a Borgeson Pressure reducing kit to modify the pressure valve. I'm going to try lowering the pressure to 1100 psi and install the 1/8" dia restrictor mentioned earlier. Will have results in a day or two.
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Old Aug 28, 2018 | 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by lionelhutz
The pressure line fitting adapter in the back of the pump has the orifice that controls flow. The valve behind it controls pressure.

Here is details on the valve. This talks about increasing flow and pressure, but you just do the opposite.

http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articl...rsteeringmods/

Here is an example fitting to reduce flow or try a fitting for using the Saginaw pump with a Ford rack.

https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...cv-k/overview/
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/60791/10002/-1
Thanks for the links, those bottom 2, is that the ones I need?
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Old Aug 28, 2018 | 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by larrywalk
I also bought a Borgeson Pressure reducing kit to modify the pressure valve. I'm going to try lowering the pressure to 1100 psi and install the 1/8" dia restrictor mentioned earlier. Will have results in a day or two.
Ive seen the Borgeson kit, be interesting to see how you get in, pictures would be great!
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Old Aug 28, 2018 | 04:46 PM
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I'm not sure on those links, but they should work if your hose matches the connection the part has.

You put washers or shims on the threaded part of the pressure valve after taking it apart. On that GM truck link there is a picture of 4 assembled valves and some have washers on them. More washers = less pressure.
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Old Aug 28, 2018 | 09:07 PM
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Ok, here's the results...
To refresh, I'm using the Borgeson steering upgrade in my '65 Corvette with the integral power steering box with a 12.7 ratio. The steering was too light for my preferences, although parking was very easy, but I wanted more road feel.

Today I added a Borgeson Pump Pressure Valve shim Kit, pn 899001, and a flow restrictor, from Speedway (Mustang II Power Steering Flow Valve, 2 GPM, pn 91032918). The pressure valve already had 3 shims, for a total stack of .055"; I added 1 shim, raising the stack to .075". The directions with the kit are very good with pictures, but the toughest part was jacking the car, and draining the fluid out into a "funnel" made from a cut-in-half gallon plastic jug - nothing like doing this on your back hoping that you don't end up with a face full of fluid!

The old flow restrictor had a hole with a diameter of .128"; the new one from Speedway had a hole diameter of .113". This cut the hole area by 22%. Also noteworthy, the depth of this new flow restrictor to the end of the nozzle where it contacts the sliding piston was 1.272" compared to the old restrictor which had a depth of 1.348". I'm not sure whether this is a factor or not.

Test drive: The torque to turn the steering wheel for parking maneuvering was higher than before the mod, but quite nice. Driving produced slightly higher forces to turn, and better resistance to jiggles into the steering. However, the directional stability was slightly less than what I like, or had with manual steering, but this was a very minor change. Perhaps if I feel eager to do some more work, I'll add some more caster by slotting the upper control arm shaft, but overall it's a fine improvement. Before I do the caster change, I'll test this new configuration in an upcoming autocross next month.

Cheers!
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Old Aug 28, 2018 | 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by larrywalk
I also bought a Borgeson Pressure reducing kit to modify the pressure valve. I'm going to try lowering the pressure to 1100 psi and install the 1/8" dia restrictor mentioned earlier. Will have results in a day or two.
the factory c3 pump should be in the 900-1000 psi from the factory. What does the borgenson box require?
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