New Engine Masters episode.....
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
Likes: 1,136
From: League City Tx
New Engine Masters episode.....
Was freakin awesome!
I don't want to spoil it for you guys so I'll leave out the details but.... They are dyno testing engine coolant temps, intake air temps, fuel temps etc etc....Pretty interesting info came out of this.... I will say that for those folks that think a hot engine temp makes power, boy are you in for a shock..... (most of us already know this but....there is still some stubborn ole folks out there that thinks 190* is good..)
Its on Motor Trend On Demand if you're not sure where to watch it....Good stuff for sure.
I don't want to spoil it for you guys so I'll leave out the details but.... They are dyno testing engine coolant temps, intake air temps, fuel temps etc etc....Pretty interesting info came out of this.... I will say that for those folks that think a hot engine temp makes power, boy are you in for a shock..... (most of us already know this but....there is still some stubborn ole folks out there that thinks 190* is good..)
Its on Motor Trend On Demand if you're not sure where to watch it....Good stuff for sure.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,532
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From: Arizona - If you don’t know CFI, STOP proliferating the myths around it...
Being lazzzy...Got a link? Never-mind, realized that I needed to subscribe first. Ugh!
Last edited by Buccaneer; Feb 27, 2019 at 06:44 PM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
Likes: 1,136
From: League City Tx
Now Motor Trend owns Velocity network, and all of the cool series like Roadkill, Roadkill garage, Hot Rod Garage, Engine Masters are all on Motor Trend On Demand. It’s only $5 a month and you get access to everything that’s on Velocity/Discovery....tons of shows, all of the seasons etc. It’s really worth the money.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
Likes: 1,136
From: League City Tx
Cliff notes.....
hot oil, cold fuel, and cool coolant = power.
All the guys here that used to preach that 190-200* water temp is ideal....well, get ready to lose 15-20 hp.
hot oil, cold fuel, and cool coolant = power.
All the guys here that used to preach that 190-200* water temp is ideal....well, get ready to lose 15-20 hp.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,809
From: Cool Northern Michigan
Reminds me of the ol' days when I drag raced. In the staging lanes all engines off, hoods were up, bag of ice on the carb, bag of ice on the Rad and a "Cool Can" full of ice for the gas.
190 degree thermostat must be a "smog thing". Its not my thing.
190 degree thermostat must be a "smog thing". Its not my thing.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,532
Likes: 1,185
From: Arizona - If you don’t know CFI, STOP proliferating the myths around it...
Just out of curiosity, how hot is hot for oil, temp wise?
Last edited by Buccaneer; Feb 28, 2019 at 11:17 AM.
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Drifting
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Stockton Ca
Lower Temps!
After seeing a test of water temps long ago.
I was impressed w/difference.
I think it was about 20 hp at higher temps?
I asked long ago what diff the full NASCAR treatment would do?
Reduce temps on oil, fuel and water?
We know a 'cool can' works.
R
I was impressed w/difference.
I think it was about 20 hp at higher temps?
I asked long ago what diff the full NASCAR treatment would do?
Reduce temps on oil, fuel and water?
We know a 'cool can' works.
R
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
My fans come on at 185 degs. Set like that for twenty years no matter which engine I had in it.
Last edited by MotorHead; Feb 28, 2019 at 12:15 PM.
Team Owner
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From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
I will say that for those folks that think a hot engine temp makes power, boy are you in for a shock..... (most of us already know this but....there is still some stubborn ole folks out there that thinks 190* is good..)
Some dyno cells are actually pressurised and many have cold air piped right into that carb. Hot oil cool water/air
Last edited by cv67; Feb 28, 2019 at 12:29 PM.
Is my vette stock?? HAHA
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Ya, they proved that with a boost episode with and without an intercooler. Wish I could cool my cold air intake
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2017
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From: Virginia
I s'pose either way, the L-82 dual-snorkel "CAI" is still the way to go, until you get to the limits of breathing. Not a problem for those of us still plodding along with ~200 HP!
Tech Contributor
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From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Is the video conducted by those same two goobers I've seen in previous EM videos?
A 160* thermostat/coolant temp is fine for making additional horsepower in things like a stationary engine (that runs pumps to water crops) or a vehicle that has a very low on-track duty cycle. For anything that spends any decent time on a track I would bet dollars to donuts that a 200* engine would make better lap times than a 160* engine. The extra weight and poorer aerodynamics caused by larger radiators (and coolant weight) and greater airflow going through the grill (ending up under the car) to maintain a 160* coolant temp is going to negatively overwhelm any 15-20 horsepower improvement.
In my "smog" ZL-1 I'm running a "smoggy" 195* thermostat. I'm also running a lightweight cooling system, and have about 90% of the front three grills blocked off, along with about 50% of the two underchin openings blocked off as well. This results in less aero drag, less lift, and more cornering traction.
A 160* thermostat/coolant temp is fine for making additional horsepower in things like a stationary engine (that runs pumps to water crops) or a vehicle that has a very low on-track duty cycle. For anything that spends any decent time on a track I would bet dollars to donuts that a 200* engine would make better lap times than a 160* engine. The extra weight and poorer aerodynamics caused by larger radiators (and coolant weight) and greater airflow going through the grill (ending up under the car) to maintain a 160* coolant temp is going to negatively overwhelm any 15-20 horsepower improvement.
In my "smog" ZL-1 I'm running a "smoggy" 195* thermostat. I'm also running a lightweight cooling system, and have about 90% of the front three grills blocked off, along with about 50% of the two underchin openings blocked off as well. This results in less aero drag, less lift, and more cornering traction.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2005
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From: Arizona - If you don’t know CFI, STOP proliferating the myths around it...
I'm just curious on the temps since you can't keep oil temps down per-say if your engine temps are high on the street, they go hand in hand. Racing on a track 1/4 mile would be another story. You can run all kinds of fans to cool stuff down, but in Arizona it really doesn't matter so much...Get stuck in traffic and the temps will start to climb...Ugh! Right now, I have a cooling issue that I hope is now finally solved and will be changing back to my 185* stat. Right now, I'm running just a stat plate with no center...just a hole in the center. The outside temps are around 65-70* and when data logging yesterday, my CTS temps on the laptop never went over 150* at any time even when on it hard to 6,100. My system looks like its keep in cool enough with effectively no stat. My 38 year old temp gauge was reading about 150-155*, so I feel like the gauge is fairly accurate. IR gun reads about the same, so I'm happy. As far as the motor running OK, it was running like a scalded dog for sure and as long as the cooling system cooperates, I may be able to go over to the track soon and blast the new motor.
Last edited by Buccaneer; Feb 28, 2019 at 04:07 PM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
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From: League City Tx
Running the coolant temps that cold on the street isn’t feasible or even possible really, but on the drag strip it is, and when looking for every tenth and mph, it’s worth cooling it down. On my car, making pulls around 140* is worth about a tenth and a solid 1-1.5 mph. I’ve tested it time and time again.
My trick is to drive the car to the track, which gets the oil good and hot, then I cool off the coolant while waiting to run, the oil will stay warm for hours. I push the car through the staging lanes and don’t start it until it’s time to burn out.
it takes some effort but it’s worth it.
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,095
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From: New Braunfels Texas
Why do you think some spend so much time at the track doing cool downs with a hose?
Why do Cold Air Kits exist?
Why does AFR's Titan intakes make so much more power than a comparable intake?
The same guys that claim that higher water temps make more power due to higher thermal expansion are the same guys that tell you that a 3" exhaust on your pickup will make it lose low end torque.
At the end of the day...oil temp is much more important than water temp but almost nobody pays attention to it.....me included, as long as the water temp is holding out well because the SBC is a proven design.
But in a race application....too high or too low of an oil temp can be trouble.
New cars run 210 degrees because it is easier to control emissions at those temps......old cars should run about 160 for water temp......enough heat to keep the oil happy but not enough to make the intake charge too hot.
They may have made more power at 140 degrees but running a street engine there would reduce life unless a thin oil was used.
Pro-Stock runs about 140 degrees water.........but they use a 0w oil.........
Jebby
Why do Cold Air Kits exist?
Why does AFR's Titan intakes make so much more power than a comparable intake?
The same guys that claim that higher water temps make more power due to higher thermal expansion are the same guys that tell you that a 3" exhaust on your pickup will make it lose low end torque.
At the end of the day...oil temp is much more important than water temp but almost nobody pays attention to it.....me included, as long as the water temp is holding out well because the SBC is a proven design.
But in a race application....too high or too low of an oil temp can be trouble.
New cars run 210 degrees because it is easier to control emissions at those temps......old cars should run about 160 for water temp......enough heat to keep the oil happy but not enough to make the intake charge too hot.
They may have made more power at 140 degrees but running a street engine there would reduce life unless a thin oil was used.
Pro-Stock runs about 140 degrees water.........but they use a 0w oil.........
Jebby
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
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From: League City Tx
Well, if you watch this test, they actually prove the power loss from high engine coolant temps was NOT due to higher intake temps, they even heated the intake up to 260* with 2 heat guns and it lost only 2hp.
Their finding was that the higher temp in the combustion chamber creates higher pressure, which renders cylinder filling, creates less expansion rate change when the air/fuel charge lights off etc. The actual increase in surface temps/chamber temps due to increased coolant temps, creates a higher pressure in the chamber at the wrong time in the combustion process.
The cooled fuel made way more difference then anyone figured. Ironically, icing the intake down for 45 mins along with cool fuel was worth 6hp. Icing the intake down with hot fuel was worth nothing.
Their finding was that the higher temp in the combustion chamber creates higher pressure, which renders cylinder filling, creates less expansion rate change when the air/fuel charge lights off etc. The actual increase in surface temps/chamber temps due to increased coolant temps, creates a higher pressure in the chamber at the wrong time in the combustion process.
The cooled fuel made way more difference then anyone figured. Ironically, icing the intake down for 45 mins along with cool fuel was worth 6hp. Icing the intake down with hot fuel was worth nothing.
Last edited by ajrothm; Mar 1, 2019 at 08:26 AM.
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,095
Likes: 4,024
From: New Braunfels Texas
Their finding was that the higher temp in the combustion chamber creates higher pressure, which renders cylinder filling, creates less expansion rate change when the air/fuel charge lights off etc. The actual increase in surface temps/chamber temps due to increased coolant temps, creates a higher pressure in the chamber at the wrong time in the combustion process.
Jebby
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2017
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From: Virginia
I was wondering that, too. They only heated up the intake, which the air only passes through, but the heads and block are still cool? I'll have to sign up and watch the episode...
As 69427 pointed out, there are other tradeoffs that will determine the proper balance of aero, weight, and cooling for your application. But CAI and hot (but not too hot) oil seem to be nearly free wins either way.
As 69427 pointed out, there are other tradeoffs that will determine the proper balance of aero, weight, and cooling for your application. But CAI and hot (but not too hot) oil seem to be nearly free wins either way.