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From progress springs optimism, then confidence, followed by new plans.
This will be one of those long term threads that last a few months before concluding.
After being down since October of last year, The Le Mans Saint (gotta find a shorter name ) is about to awaken for a second time. I reconnected the drive shaft yesterday and realized that there are mostly just ancillary things left to do. Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration willing, I am confident I'll be back on the road by mid-Sept. Just in time for some enjoyment.
Time to plot my next steps for when I take the car down for the winter.
I had a 200-4R in my old Chevelle. I loved it to death ! A deeper first gear and an OD transforms a car. Once you have it, it is hard to go back to 1:1
Some months ago I bought a T5 out of a V6 Camaro from the 90s. The gearing is not what I would like it to be, but being in Belgium - that's what you get. First gear is silly deep and the OD is not quite as high as I would like it to be. We have the technology I will rebuild it with a different gear set and harder parts. I will document that here as well.
I plan on reusing, if possible my M21 bellhousing. The bolt pattern of the GM T5 seems to match the M21 bellhousing.
I will have to be mindful of the input shaft length. I presume there are different lengths available... it would be nice to avoid an adapter plate to offset an input shaft that is too long.
Any thoughts on an input shaft that would work with an OEM M21 belhousing are welcome.
Last edited by DorianC3; Aug 23, 2019 at 03:16 AM.
the problem with the input shaft is it is also the input gear. you can't change it unless you find another with same number of teeth. and that is probably not gonna happen. 90's. WC unit. got the tag on the side of trans? says your ratio. 13-52- what? you sure about case shape? v6 trans from the 90's fits a ford bell, not a GM v8. http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Bo...T5-ID-Tags.htm this adapter is close to what you need, i think. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bellhousing...QAAOSwHMJYDS0j there are 2 most common fronts to T5 trans. the MOST common is the ford pattern which was used by GM on S10 and pass car V6's. some early non-world class v6's used the v8 chevy bell housing. post pics of your trans and tag number.
Last edited by derekderek; Aug 23, 2019 at 05:01 AM.
this is a ford case with a WC counter bearing. note the machined surface around the outside diameter. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-GM-Tre...EAAOSwcBhWayIw this is a GM v8 case. older non-WC. notice the counter gear bearing looks more like a freeze plug. not as strong and tight a fit in the case. if you see an oil stain coming out the bottom of this bearing cup RUN!!! the case is junk. https://www.ebay.com/itm/83-85-86-87...0AAOSwXeJYJeqI re-reading first post. you say bolt pattern seems to fit muncie bell housing. how many teeth on the clutch spline? and driveshaft spline?
Last edited by derekderek; Aug 23, 2019 at 07:18 AM.
Yep 26 spline input. That will most likely be a 21 tooth input gear. The weak point on v6 trannys. The 24 tooth from GM or the 23 tooth from V8 mustangs is stronger. Rebuild is a waste. You need a whole gearset. Only way to get one reasonably is to buy a whole trans. The adapter makes input shaft length right and adapts the bolt pattern. Buy adapter and install the trans or shop for the right trans. Or buy a mustang v8 trans. Build it onto your correct mainshaft. Wc
C V8 Chevy cases are easier to find than whole transmissions.
1. Keep what you have. (maybe change rear gears, to what you think fits you)
2. Wait until you find a GM T5 WC like the 176 (it took me 2 years to find one, they are hard to find)
3. Find a Ford, and make/buy the adaptor plate.
4. Get a NON WC Chevy transmission.
diff between WC and non-WC is about 20 ft lbs rating. also they rated it by putting full load on it constantly til it popped. they are conservative cuz they hate to give away parts under warranty. you try to pick front wheels off the ground, you will be picking up pieces of tranny off the street. WC or NWC. dennmark to belgium is a little better ship-duty cost than US to belgium i would assume.
Thank you Gentlemen. I much appreciate the feedback and I habe been mulling this over.
At this point, I am planning to go with option one: keep what I have and fill with exactly the gears that I want. (We shall see if I am able to stick to this plan.)
There are several reasons for this... I have a T5 and it is on my workbench and paid for.
Also, I am in Belgium; so the calculus is always a little different. Reselling my T5 is unlikely and finding a better one here is even more so. If I were a better T5 in the USA... getting it over here would be challenging not to mention costly. With all said and done, you are looking at adding 50% to the sticker price (if the fellow is willing to ship); and there is still a good chance it would require a rebuild.
Also, I look forward to rebuilding + documenting, for the fun and experience, and knowing that what is box is in great shape. No exploding after backing out 5 feet down my driveway. Ask me how I have come to anticipate that one
I have been watching some Paul Cangialosi videos. It looks pretty straight forward. Books... videos... it'll be fine. I probably will have to call him up to discuss the feasibility and parts supply.
At this point we have three open questions:
can I rebuild this with a new gear set to the specs I want?
if, I do... would the limited choice of input shafts compel me to replace the entire bellhousing... or would I be able to get an input shaft that would only require an adapter plate.
Would I also be limited in output shafts? I would want to reuse my yoke if possible.
I suspect the best thing to do is call up Paul Cangialosi.
As you can see...the V6 Camaro T5 fits NOTHING but a V6 Camaro. You need a T5 from an 85 to 92 Camaro V8 (They only came with the 5.0l). Get all of the pieces too because that trans requires a hydraulic slave and you will have to figure out a way to make that work.
The new gearset will work in that case. It will come with a 24 tooth input shaft. The v6 Camaro bell will NOT work. So it must be adapted to your orig v8 muncie bell. Input shaft cover. There are many. WC and NWC covers interchange. The adapter will have a ring machined that fits muncie bell hang. It had a hole a T5 cover fits into. Diff dia holes for diff covers. I gotta do some measuring and post sizes. Pretty sure all 3 of mine (2nwc, 1 wc) are all the same v8 gm size, even though 1 is early by with v8 gm bolt pattern. That v6 trans of yours is called the Ford pattern. Your mainshaft is the one you need and want to stay with. As long as bearing surface on front of shaft is good. And I never contradict Jebby, but that will work with existing clutch setup.
Last edited by derekderek; Aug 29, 2019 at 11:13 AM.
The clutch I use for my T5WC 176 transmission is the clutch from the M21 transmission, besides the disc, due to the 26 spline in the T5WC transmission.
I think to change a gear ratio in a transmission, with all the parts you need, will cost a lot. But Paul can tell you, if that is correct or not.
I know it's a pain, but if you want a 5 speed T5/T5WC transmission, then there is only one way, to buy a new one, And forget about the one you have.
We all have bought parts, we will never use :- )
Buy the adapter. Install the trans. Run it. Then decide if it is worth another thousand to buy and import the 2.95 headset. Still doesn't come with 5th though. But that is cheap and easy to find used. You will be shifting into 2nd rather quick. But the .73 OD is still pretty decent. And paid for!
Buy the adapter. Install the trans. Run it. Then decide if it is worth another thousand to buy and import the 2.95 headset. Still doesn't come with 5th though. But that is cheap and easy to find used. You will be shifting into 2nd rather quick. But the .73 OD is still pretty decent. And paid for!
You know... that is excellent advice and makes a whole ton of sense. I’ll try that !
The trans that I have comes from a 1994 Camaro/Firebird. It is a World Class BUT for a V6. So, the bolt pattern is Ford-style. The input shaft has a different spline count. The output shaft is compatible with the spline count of my drive shaft. My plan is to toss it in, pretty much as is to see if I like it. (I may swap the OD gears... see below.) If I like it I will either rebuild the trans with better gears... or buy another trans new/used/rebuilt but also Ford-style so that it is a simple drop in. I am leaning toward rebuilding on my own. I once rebuilt a 200-4R; it can't be so terribly difficult.
Clutch
I plan to re-use my clutch... unless, I can piece a hydraulic one together without breaking the piggy-bank. $650 is expensive for an off-the-shelf. There must be a more thrifty way of achieving this. Likely, I will keep this for later once I proceed with the replacement or rebuild.
Drive shaft
That will need to be shortened. I will need to find a shop here.
O.D. Gearing
Currently my T5 comes with 0.72 gears. I am worried that will be too low for me. Even for testing purposes. I hear tell that converting to 0.68 is cheap and easy? Is that true ?
O.D. Gearing
Currently my T5 comes with 0.72 gears. I am worried that will be too low for me. Even for testing purposes. I hear tell that converting to 0.68 is cheap and easy? Is that true ?
I went through an existential (??) crisis this weekend as I discovered that my T5 was far less scalable than I thought. The 3.75 first gears are probably swapping one discomfort for another; I’ll gain a fifth gear but “lose” my first. That means one day swapping out my input shaft, countershaft cluster and related main shaft gears with a new gear set.
Well, I ran into a snag... bear with me, please. The 5th gear ratio is contingent on the tooth count of the Input shaft and driven first gear on the counter shaft. Combined with the combination of my 5th gear set, this would negate the benefits of my OD which is the whole purpose of this exercise.
That means in addition to eventually replacing my input shaft and countershaft (to give me a 3.35 or 2.95 first) I’ll need to also swap out the 5th gear set. A good pair from eBay would have been fine to give me a comfortable overdrive. BUT, and here’s the rub, the replacement the 5th gear set would require a different spline count on the output, or main, shaft.
In other words, I would need to replace the output shaft as well.
So: new input, new counter, rebuild kit, new output and new OD. Essentially all I could keep are the case, cover and forks + tail housing.
Too bad, I like that output shaft, the spline count matched the yoke of my corfefe.
That’s a lot of trans to replace. I was on the edge of deciding to dump my trans altogether (and start scavenging for a V8 model), until I cracked open my T5 and... it’s not perfect; but it is in awesome shape ! It looks to have very, very little wear. Just the reverse gear looks a bit chipped.
I spent the rest of my Sunday evening examining the V6 1994 Firebird rpm and speed and comparing it to the M21.
The conclusion is, were I to swap in this trans, I’d lose my M21 second gear for a super low 1st... and gain a comfortable 5th.
The Muncie’s first is equivalent to the T5’s second. In other words, getting off the line in second would be about the same as the somewhat high 1st that I have currently. Then I would be skipping what would be the Muncie’s second gear for its third. Fourth is the same 1:1.
To cut this all short... can I live (at least temporarily) with a silly deep 1st and gain a 5th ? And the answer: yes.
The gearing, rpm, speed is equivalent to a V6 firebird. This is something that was on the road that GM offered. Granted... it will not be perfect but it will solve my 5th gear withdrawal.
The plan now is to throw this one in and, when a good 2.95 Ford comes along, it will be an easy swap that I can rebuild before tossing it in there
EDIT: rebuilding seems simple enough. Most important is to have a shop press. I found 12 ton ones here for $90
Last edited by DorianC3; Oct 20, 2019 at 03:49 PM.
A T5 conversion journey...
) is about to awaken for a second time. I reconnected the drive shaft yesterday and realized that there are mostly just ancillary things left to do. Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration willing, I am confident I'll be back on the road by mid-Sept. Just in time for some enjoyment.
I will rebuild it with a different gear set and harder parts. I will document that here as well.
