CA smog and tuning issues - long
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,549
Likes: 343
From: Glastonbury CT
My 77 L-82 passed the smog test after 3 tests. This is what i did ran it so the cat got real hot. Drove the car to the inspection station at the end of the day when it was about to close and got in line passed. If it does not pass register it in Maine i think you can do this on line .All they want is the fees .
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 10,097
Likes: 4,027
From: New Braunfels Texas
I dont think you are reading the test correctly
in your second test, the column you have circled for "gross polluter" on the far right are not your measurements, they are the limits set by the state, the "MEAS" column is yours, and its way low.
it looks like you are actually failed for 3 items- both HC readings, and the bottom CO% which is at 25 mph.
in your second test, the column you have circled for "gross polluter" on the far right are not your measurements, they are the limits set by the state, the "MEAS" column is yours, and its way low.
it looks like you are actually failed for 3 items- both HC readings, and the bottom CO% which is at 25 mph.
Look into that A/F meter.....it will be the tell.
Jebby
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,964
Likes: 579
From: Pittsburgh PA
also, looking at what you posted, there are no readings taken at idle, just 15 and 25 mph- why not put the lightest possible springs you can in the distributor, so you get you advance to come up as quickly as possible. And looking even move at this, in your second test, your 25 mph RPMs are down compared to the first. did the car shift for the second test not the first? do you have an option to NOT let the car shift? if you could keep the RPMs up, better shot at having more timing when the sniffer takes its reading.
I'm not in Cali but PA used to have some similar tail pipe tests for older cars. it was always a bear to get anything other than the stock setup to pass
if you are allowed to be plus or minus 2 degrees from the factory timing, id set it to 10 (the stock 8 plus your 2).
lightest springs to get the most advance as quick as possible
since you know what rpms they sniffer is testing at, try to get a vacuum advance adjusted to pull max advance at those rpms
I'm not in Cali but PA used to have some similar tail pipe tests for older cars. it was always a bear to get anything other than the stock setup to pass
if you are allowed to be plus or minus 2 degrees from the factory timing, id set it to 10 (the stock 8 plus your 2).
lightest springs to get the most advance as quick as possible
since you know what rpms they sniffer is testing at, try to get a vacuum advance adjusted to pull max advance at those rpms
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 554
Likes: 82
From: San Jose CA
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 554
Likes: 82
From: San Jose CA
Well you are in CA. My take is that you should have known that you would probably not get away with an engine upgrade like that in the Socialist Republic of California. Yep, you have probably been classified as a GROSS POLLUTOR, shame on you for not toeing the line. And of course now you will not be able to legally sell it to anyone in CA because of this, you will have to sell it out of state. Is that even legal in CA?
Sounds like the car is really nice. Good mods. It would be happy in another state, free to roam and all that....
Sure am glad I left CA (Sunnyvale) in 74-75.
Sounds like the car is really nice. Good mods. It would be happy in another state, free to roam and all that....
Sure am glad I left CA (Sunnyvale) in 74-75.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 554
Likes: 82
From: San Jose CA
I dont think you are reading the test correctly
in your second test, the column you have circled for "gross polluter" on the far right are not your measurements, they are the limits set by the state, the "MEAS" column is yours, and its way low.
it looks like you are actually failed for 3 items- both HC readings, and the bottom CO% which is at 25 mph.
in your second test, the column you have circled for "gross polluter" on the far right are not your measurements, they are the limits set by the state, the "MEAS" column is yours, and its way low.
it looks like you are actually failed for 3 items- both HC readings, and the bottom CO% which is at 25 mph.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 554
Likes: 82
From: San Jose CA
Heads are not going to make it pollute......compression is not going to make it pollute. The overlap of the cam will make it pollute.....so will a rich mixture. You may have done the carb exact but after thinking about it now, you need to get an A/F meter and drive around with it to figure out if you are running rich, which is what I suspect, because your fuel mileage is so poor. Also, stick a vacuum gauge on it and tell us what you see......is the needle steady at idle? How much vacuum do you have.
I will repeat myself on the fact that more cam overlap requires more timing and you cannot do that....sooooooo.......
Here is an option......the real Pro-Billet HEI has a 28 degree bushing in it like their small cap units.......you could dial in 8-10 degrees initial and end up at 36 degrees total mechanical. https://documents.holley.com/8365.pdf There is also a 25 degree bushing so you could run 10 degrees initial and 35 total which is ok for your fast burn chambers in your AFR heads. I like this solution...only downside is that the distributor is expensive.
Let's switch gears for a second......an LS7 ZO6 2013 Corvette has a rather large cam and big heads...lots of compression....etc..... The computer that runs this engine uses timing and A/F to make it pass emissions......yes it has a lot of sensors and things but they are all there just to tell the computer what to do. So on an engine like yours......timing and A/F are critical....don't chase your tail thinking it is the engine build.....it is the engine management.....get it right....and your are good to go.....but the timing has to be done first......
I suspect that your Ruggles "recipe 2" is causing the mixture to be too rich at part throttle....
But anyway.....
Timing
Vacuum
A/F meter
Just some ideas........the A/F meter will answer a LOT of your questions......
BTW....do you have a stock Q-Jet you could put on it?
Jebby
I will repeat myself on the fact that more cam overlap requires more timing and you cannot do that....sooooooo.......
Here is an option......the real Pro-Billet HEI has a 28 degree bushing in it like their small cap units.......you could dial in 8-10 degrees initial and end up at 36 degrees total mechanical. https://documents.holley.com/8365.pdf There is also a 25 degree bushing so you could run 10 degrees initial and 35 total which is ok for your fast burn chambers in your AFR heads. I like this solution...only downside is that the distributor is expensive.
Let's switch gears for a second......an LS7 ZO6 2013 Corvette has a rather large cam and big heads...lots of compression....etc..... The computer that runs this engine uses timing and A/F to make it pass emissions......yes it has a lot of sensors and things but they are all there just to tell the computer what to do. So on an engine like yours......timing and A/F are critical....don't chase your tail thinking it is the engine build.....it is the engine management.....get it right....and your are good to go.....but the timing has to be done first......
I suspect that your Ruggles "recipe 2" is causing the mixture to be too rich at part throttle....
But anyway.....
Timing
Vacuum
A/F meter
Just some ideas........the A/F meter will answer a LOT of your questions......
BTW....do you have a stock Q-Jet you could put on it?
Jebby
Why do you think the carb mod could be causing a rich mixture? That thought has crossed my mind as well, I do have another carb that looks like it has not been touched but it would need a rebuild. I could send it to Lars, that thought has crossed my mind also.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 554
Likes: 82
From: San Jose CA
My 77 L-82 passed the smog test after 3 tests. This is what i did ran it so the cat got real hot. Drove the car to the inspection station at the end of the day when it was about to close and got in line passed. If it does not pass register it in Maine i think you can do this on line .All they want is the fees .
Some guys get PO boxes in rural counties in CA where the requirements are looser, I'm not there yet...
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Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 554
Likes: 82
From: San Jose CA
also, looking at what you posted, there are no readings taken at idle, just 15 and 25 mph- why not put the lightest possible springs you can in the distributor, so you get you advance to come up as quickly as possible. And looking even move at this, in your second test, your 25 mph RPMs are down compared to the first. did the car shift for the second test not the first? do you have an option to NOT let the car shift? if you could keep the RPMs up, better shot at having more timing when the sniffer takes its reading.
I'm not in Cali but PA used to have some similar tail pipe tests for older cars. it was always a bear to get anything other than the stock setup to pass
if you are allowed to be plus or minus 2 degrees from the factory timing, id set it to 10 (the stock 8 plus your 2).
lightest springs to get the most advance as quick as possible
since you know what rpms they sniffer is testing at, try to get a vacuum advance adjusted to pull max advance at those rpms
I'm not in Cali but PA used to have some similar tail pipe tests for older cars. it was always a bear to get anything other than the stock setup to pass
if you are allowed to be plus or minus 2 degrees from the factory timing, id set it to 10 (the stock 8 plus your 2).
lightest springs to get the most advance as quick as possible
since you know what rpms they sniffer is testing at, try to get a vacuum advance adjusted to pull max advance at those rpms
Yes, I might play with the springs
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 81,241
Likes: 3,063
From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
nowadays the test has to be done within 15 (or 30?) miradius of your primary residence.
You have legal longtubes? What about your cats how old are they?
I bet a little more initial may do it get that sucker hot....ask for a pretest to see if youll fail or not.
Smog is one thing that keeps me away from later c3s.too bad as theres great deals on them. TONS of nice rides in that era that will never pass. Yes you can sell it out of state.
I had to trailer an 85 GT mustang (built 460) as I got stuck with that test only bs. Man was I pizzed
Som,etimes seeing the ref aint all that bad, youd be surprised if all is well how often they may give you a state sticker anyways. Did it with a 454 Blazer swap...headers dint have an EO # but put the smog stuff on even with a big cam he let it go. That cert was gold.
You have legal longtubes? What about your cats how old are they?
I bet a little more initial may do it get that sucker hot....ask for a pretest to see if youll fail or not.
Smog is one thing that keeps me away from later c3s.too bad as theres great deals on them. TONS of nice rides in that era that will never pass. Yes you can sell it out of state.
I had to trailer an 85 GT mustang (built 460) as I got stuck with that test only bs. Man was I pizzed
Som,etimes seeing the ref aint all that bad, youd be surprised if all is well how often they may give you a state sticker anyways. Did it with a 454 Blazer swap...headers dint have an EO # but put the smog stuff on even with a big cam he let it go. That cert was gold.
Last edited by cv67; Mar 4, 2020 at 04:04 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,399
Likes: 247
From: San Jose CA
Hey Jim - the major delta between the two engines I've passed in CA and this one is the cam. Which model cam was it again?
To everyone else - for what it's worth: I passed with the heads (as in, the heads that Jim has on his car) and the headers, on a GW350 with a Crane Energizer. (can't remember model, can look it up, but was 216/216-110LSA)
My current engine has a hair more cam and is passing very well.
High HC, high CO, very low NOx is what you're looking at. Usually, HC and CO run in opposition to each other. As you lean out the mixture, HC goes up and CO goes down.
Is your PCV valve stuck? How are the plugs? Could they be fouled from prior tuning?
To everyone else - for what it's worth: I passed with the heads (as in, the heads that Jim has on his car) and the headers, on a GW350 with a Crane Energizer. (can't remember model, can look it up, but was 216/216-110LSA)
My current engine has a hair more cam and is passing very well.
High HC, high CO, very low NOx is what you're looking at. Usually, HC and CO run in opposition to each other. As you lean out the mixture, HC goes up and CO goes down.
Is your PCV valve stuck? How are the plugs? Could they be fouled from prior tuning?
Last edited by Shark Racer; Mar 4, 2020 at 04:52 PM.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 554
Likes: 82
From: San Jose CA
Hey Jim - the major delta between the two engines I've passed in CA and this one is the cam. Which model cam was it again?
To everyone else - for what it's worth: I passed with the heads (as in, the heads that Jim has on his car) and the headers, on a GW350 with a Crane Energizer. (can't remember model, can look it up, but was 216/216-110LSA)
My current engine has a hair more cam and is passing very well.
High HC, high CO, very low NOx is what you're looking at. Usually, HC and CO run in opposition to each other. As you lean out the mixture, HC goes up and CO goes down.
Is your PCV valve stuck? How are the plugs? Could they be fouled from prior tuning?
To everyone else - for what it's worth: I passed with the heads (as in, the heads that Jim has on his car) and the headers, on a GW350 with a Crane Energizer. (can't remember model, can look it up, but was 216/216-110LSA)
My current engine has a hair more cam and is passing very well.
High HC, high CO, very low NOx is what you're looking at. Usually, HC and CO run in opposition to each other. As you lean out the mixture, HC goes up and CO goes down.
Is your PCV valve stuck? How are the plugs? Could they be fouled from prior tuning?
Manufacturer's Part Number:10120702LK
Cam Style:Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range:1,400-5,700
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:219
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:227
Duration at 050 inch Lift:219 int./227 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration:262
Advertised Exhaust Duration:268
Advertised Duration:262 int./268 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.468 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.489 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.468 int./0.489 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):112
PCV valve is good, plugs are good (just looked at them recently)
Ok so I found something today when I went to change the restrictor plate in the dizzy. There was a little plastic flat U-shaped piece sitting on the bottom underneath the weights. It is supposed to be on the top of the rotor pressing on the middle contact which makes it push up towards the cap. Without it there might have been a weak contact with the rotor and cap. I put it back in place and went for a drive, did not change the plate, I try not to make more than one change at a time. The car ran better but not a dramatic differece. While I was out I thought I would swing by Corvette Connection and see if Kevin thought this fix would help enough to get me through smog. He listened to the engine and poked around a bit and there is a slight miss that I didn't think was a big deal, he did but he could not really tell what was causing it. He thinks it is either a lean miss or maybe a valve is out of adjustment and he thinks if I solve that problem I will be good. He also told me I should be running premium gas, I have been putting regular in, with 9.2:1 I thought that would be ok. Where I live regular is 87 octane and premium 91. So tomorrow I'll pull the valve covers and adjust the valves. Kevin suggested finding a shop that has an oscilloscope which might help find the miss, his is broken. Actually I know two electrical engineers and at least one of them has one....
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 13,082
Likes: 3,399
From: SW Florida.
Here's another thought. A little too much Cam, a little too much overlap. Set your hydraulics like their sallets with about 25 thousands of lash. You got a lot less overlap. Then reset them directly after you get it inspected. But as I said previously your nitrous oxide was way high in one inspection and way low in the other. Pull that EGR valve and clean it out.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,837
Likes: 1,028
Here's another thought. A little too much Cam, a little too much overlap. Set your hydraulics like their sallets with about 25 thousands of lash. You got a lot less overlap. Then reset them directly after you get it inspected. But as I said previously your nitrous oxide was way high in one inspection and way low in the other. Pull that EGR valve and clean it out.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,938
Likes: 848
From: melbourne florida
2023 C3 of the Year Finalist - Modified
Ok, those are two things that are easy to do. But the reason for the way I have it timed now is to get it past smog, I don't think those settings will fly. I did see that the tech had a timing light hooked up yesterday and he was going by the sticker. Does anyone know about that? I do have Lars' paper and after getting it smogged I was going to set it at 32 degrees initial + vac. Mechanical on that distributor is 22 deg and all in by about 3500 rpm so that would be 52 degrees total at 3500.
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 28
Likes: 4
From: Visalia
Having to deal with smog checks as I have done most of my life The fastest way to lower HC and NO is to buy one half gallon of E 85 let your tank go down to quarter tank ad E 85 drive it afew miles then down to smog station if it will pass visual it will smog. Have done this more times than I can count when done fill tank to full your good to go. My friend ran a test only station it works. We once many years ago put my camaro on the dino with 377cu motor pushing 630 hp at 5lbs boost. would not pass visual but passed all other numbers alcohol is a wonderful thing Good Luck
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 554
Likes: 82
From: San Jose CA
Missed a couple of recent posts, sorry 'bout that. More good advice from you guys, I have lots of options. That E85 trick sounds very interesting but hopefuly I won't need it.
Shark Racer, AFRs are all good. As I mentioned the readings fluctuate but idle and cruise are mostly 14 with blips of 15 and 13, hard acceleration down below 13.
The engine does have a miss, and when I took the car over to Corvette Connection Kevin honed in on that. He said if I fix that my problem is solved, suggested adjusting the valves and checking ignition. The smog guy was great, I got there right when he opened up and not busy. He has a machine that can read the emissions without connecting to the state system/database. The HC was sky high, he said there is an ignition problem probaby a fouled plug and he also agreed that I should adjust the valves. So that is the plan as soon as I can get to it in the next few days. I have a friend who is an electrical engineer and he has an oscilloscope that we could use, does anyone know what leads to use for this application? I might also replace the plug wires with a set that can take high heat, I already had to replace one that got burned by the headers, maybe others are damaged/compromised?
And another thing, smog guy #1 1/2 failed me right away on the visual for two things, the electric choke and my EFE is on the wrong side of the car. The EFE sounds ridiculous but I had no idea that the electric choke was not allowed, He said is screws up the flow of gases in the manifold or something to that effect. I have noticed that the car idles better when cold than hot, could the electric choke be causing that? Either way I still have the origial choke parts which I will re-install.
I will make all these changes one at a time to see which one, if any, solves the problem.
Shark Racer, AFRs are all good. As I mentioned the readings fluctuate but idle and cruise are mostly 14 with blips of 15 and 13, hard acceleration down below 13.
The engine does have a miss, and when I took the car over to Corvette Connection Kevin honed in on that. He said if I fix that my problem is solved, suggested adjusting the valves and checking ignition. The smog guy was great, I got there right when he opened up and not busy. He has a machine that can read the emissions without connecting to the state system/database. The HC was sky high, he said there is an ignition problem probaby a fouled plug and he also agreed that I should adjust the valves. So that is the plan as soon as I can get to it in the next few days. I have a friend who is an electrical engineer and he has an oscilloscope that we could use, does anyone know what leads to use for this application? I might also replace the plug wires with a set that can take high heat, I already had to replace one that got burned by the headers, maybe others are damaged/compromised?
And another thing, smog guy #1 1/2 failed me right away on the visual for two things, the electric choke and my EFE is on the wrong side of the car. The EFE sounds ridiculous but I had no idea that the electric choke was not allowed, He said is screws up the flow of gases in the manifold or something to that effect. I have noticed that the car idles better when cold than hot, could the electric choke be causing that? Either way I still have the origial choke parts which I will re-install.
I will make all these changes one at a time to see which one, if any, solves the problem.