Hello Forum,
For the life of me, I could not get the timing marks to line up using a Craftsman Professional digital dial back light last weekend. I thumbed the pointer from zero to 36 degrees and the line on the balancer never even came close to the zero mark on the tab. The car runs well so I knew I was not that far out. I pulled the distributor and confirmed the #1 cylinder was on TDC stroke as the rotor pointed to cylinder #1. I stopped afterwards as I was out of ideas????
I did some home work on this forum via older threads and found the BBC balancers can shift their outer rings over time. Sure enough I reached down by feel method and the balancer mark is not lined up with one of the outer pulley mounting bolts as it should which means it's off.
My car is a 427/390 with stock configuration as far as I know. I have not changed any engine internals and have owned it since 2011. It runs well I was just trying to confirm timing when I found the problem.
My question is can I on the TDC stroke line up that point on the balancer with the zero mark on the tab make a new tic mark and use as my new TDC timing mark or must I change the balancer?
Will the balancer eventually come apart or is it just an inconvenience at this point with regards to timing? Safety concerns?
TIA,
Marshal

 

When this happens the injection molded rubber ring in between the inner hub and outer shell shrinks and becomes dry rotted....it literally separates from either the inner or outer and slides.....
Yes this is a safety issue as the rubber can finally desintragrate and leave the outer shell flopping around......it is a hell of a sound if you have never heard one.
Purchase a premium balancer from Pioneer products or the Pro Street balancer from Summit brand....which I have used and is good quality. Whatever you buy, try to get one with 0-60 timing marks on it......makes things easier, you can use a cheap strobe to time it.

Jebby

 

I agree with Jebby. If that thing lets go, I would not like to be anywhere near. If it is an original and you wish to keep it, send the damper off to Damper Dudes in CA. They did both of mine and the turn around time was a few days. Jerry

 

Do you know if the timing chain gear set has been replaced at some point? If you're only going to replace the harmonic balancer, you can borrow the removal tool and installer tool from Autozone. Also, when I removed my HB, I read on the forum that you have to raise the engine to get the HB off, on my '71 BB I didn't have to, there was enough clearance on the cross member to take it off and re-install it.
Good luck.

 

Gentlemen,
First thank you for the responses. I am not to concerned about originality with this engine. I would like an original in appearance under the hood for all the lay persons to enjoy when I pop the hood. I am not into the judging portion of this hobby. I just drive her.
Jebby, thank you for the tip on the balancer selection. I will change it out since it can come apart.
Jerry, thank you for the rebuild lead if I decide to have it done. I can always do it and have it for a original spare.
Green 454, I do not know if the timing chain and gears are original to the car.

Here is what I do know from observation and ownership since 2011.
The block is a CE8.... block so it was replaced sometime in the cars early life.
The passenger side head and intake are original the drivers side head is a later 063 (1969) head replacement.
I replaced the valve seals about the time I purchased it 9 years ago and the valves looking at the stems from above looked to be newer.
I do not know if the cam shaft and timing gears were swapped over from the original block or replaced. I have no idea what happened to the original block to warrant the replacement. The previous owner had no idea as it came that way. I have tried to reach the owner before him without success, I believe he may have passed.

I do not want to do the timing gears if unnecessary as I just replaced the water pump last winter and have no leaks. I dread opening it up as it is leak free now.
Can I do the balancer and get the timing done and leave well enough alone?
TIA,
Marshal

 

I've come to the conclusion, after 50 yrs of wrenching, to just fix what's wrong. The, "while I'm here" theory, often leads to less than desirable results, more $$, additional broken stuff.
I agree that you should replace the balancer which is a simple job. Timing chain? Does it really need it? What are the chances that you could break off a bolt? Have a oil leak, etc.??

 

My angle on this is that I would never do a balancer job without doing the timing chain if you do not know the engines history. The factory unit was a terrible nylon toothed piece of garbage that was a 100% failure replacement in the 70's and 80's.......it may not have one anymore, but you still do not know what is in there or what condition it is in......
I do agree if you are not confident with resealing your engine components that someone else should do it.....but IMHO....the timing chain replacement adds about 1.5 hours to the job and it relatively easy to do.
We had a novice here just do one after some advice and was successful.
Your choice but food for thought.

Jebby

 

A somewhat easy, Timing Chain Stretch Test is to:

Remove crank pulley & 3 bolts. Install three inch long bolts (same dia, same TPI) into balancer. Those bolts will be your leverage helper later.
Remove distributor cap and lay to the side. Using a long crow bar and those three long bolts on the balancer, rotate the crank clockwise until the dizzy rotor moves.
Now rotate the crank C.C.W. until rotor moves.

If the chain had massive stretch, there would be a delay in rotor movement.

(Never use the balancer bolt to rotate crank anymore than you have to)

 

I really did not want to tackle a timing chain but I agree with Jebby. I am wondering Heads U.P. what is an acceptable amount of stretch before the rotor moves?
I know exactly what Sayfoo is saying. When I replaced the seals around my radiator support I could not remove the lower bolts that are mounted on the frame extensions. I knew I was going to snap one off or herniate my self pulling on the ratchet.
Also I have a 390 hp with P/S and AC .... Jebby so I need a 7" balancer. The pro street is an 8" so I'm afraid it's going to hit the timing tab on the cover. Also will my belts line up when I reinstall the pulley using the after market brand(s)? I have a 3 belt crank pulley for 68 BB.
How is the Dayco PB1019N rate? It looks like it is a subsidiary company of Pioneer, Dorman etc...???

Marshal

 

What is acceptable amount of chain / rotor movement?

In my opinion, zilch. But I guess two frog hairs would be ok.

A brand new Timing Chain Set would have zero play and the rotors movement would respond immediately. I am sure there is a certain amount of harmonic balancer / crank movement allowed for a maximum chain stretch indicated in crank degrees. But I have no idea what that info is.

The real question here is: While I 'm at it, should I go ahead and blah-blah-blah ?????

The fan and belts will have to come off. You can work around the waterpump. If you remove the W.P. then yes, go ahead and swap the chain set, new cover gasket. Otherwise, let it go.

 

The PB in the part # stands for Powerbond....an Australian company and their balancers are premium quality. If you afford the PB1019SS that one has marks on it 0-60

Jebby

 

When I checked my timing chain using HeadsU.P. method, way too many frog hairs....the distributor rotor had no movement!
So I had no choice but to start removing parts and inspect the timing chain. Chain looked good, but the original cam gear was toast.
The cam gear teeth looked worse than a West Virginia hillbilly, some good, some filed down, and some almost missing. So of course I had to remove the oil pan and give it a good cleaning and install a new gasket.

It would be great if there was a way to peek at the cam gear without removing the water pump and timing chain cover completely, but I don't think it's possible.

Here's a '74 454 timing chain with 10K miles



My '71 with 55K miles

 

71Green454,
Does the oil pan have to come off to do the timing chain?
Most jobs I do are limited by my work area. I am working out of a residential garage with a quick jack when needed no lift avail.
Pan removal is more than I really wanted to do. Thought I'd ask in case it comes to that.
I'm not being lazy it's just that I just did an oil change and replaced the antifreeze last year
Thanks for the pics.
Marshal

 

Not on a Big Block....small block, yes the pan has to come down a bit....
Big block has two small bolts in the front that hold the bottom of the cover against the pan....

Jebby

 

Marshal,
You could get away with not doing the timing gear set swap until it finally fails at some point in the future. The oil pan would need to be loostened at a minimum to do it now. Creating a fresh oil pan leak is a possibilty. Even if the cam gear fails later, it is not a huge job to change it at that time.

It comes down to a low risk judgement call for you one way or another.

 

Yes, it can be done without removing the oil pan, but the pan needs to be dropped enough in the front to remove and install the timing chain cover and gasket. If you search the forum and the internet, you will find ways to remove and re-install the timing chain cover, some mention trimming the timing chain cover on both sides to be able to slip it back in place.

I also had just changed the oil and filter, and the antifreeze was nice and clean, but since mine had the original 2 piece oil pan gasket, I wanted to clean the inside of the oil pan and install a new one piece gasket. I have a big garage so space is no problem, I only had to put my car on drive up ramps to remove the idler arm bolts to drop the steering enough to remove and install the oil pan. The rest of the work was done with the car on the ground.

The hardest part for me was removing and installing the harmonic balancer, mine was real tight and I cranked on the bolt until I finally heard that click, it had released and I was able to continue pulling it off. Since I was re-installing my old HB, I marked the HB at the timing tab with a sharpie so I would know when it was all the way in. At my age, 70, the last half inch or so was the hardest. Luckily I have an old Ford wrench in my tool box, so I was able to use a pipe on the wrench to get enough leverage to fully seat the HB.

If you feel uncomfortable getting into removing the necessary items to replace the timing chain, then just install a new HB. You should only have to remove the fan blade assembly, belts, and pulleys, to R & R the HB. And hopefully, like in my case, you won't have to raise the engine to remove the HB.

I'm sure others will post their experience and offer advice, that's the great thing about this forum. Lots of members with knowledge and patience to guide us throughout our C3 ownership.
Jebby gave me some very important advice and it was much appreciated.

 

Be sure to check the nose of the crank to be sure it is smooth and clean before you install the new balancer.
Also check the inside diameter of the new harmonic balancer to insure proper fit.
Some may require a slight machining before they are installed.

 

I am praying with the Power Bond brand OEM balancer there is no machining required.
Marshal

 

I read through this thread again and noticed nothing was mentioned about checking the old balancer to determine if it is for an externally balanced or internally balanced big block.
If it is not the original block and has been rebuilt or modified by a prior owner, they may have rebuilt it and had the rotating assembly internally balanced which would mean that you now need a neutral balanced balancer.
I only mention this because I went from the oem external balance to a internally balanced rotating assembly.
I’m not knowledgeable enough to tell the difference in the balancer but I’m sure someone will chime in.

 

OCB,
I believe the CE block install was a dealer warranty swap back in the day. It was originally a 427/390 internally balanced engine and I did not feel any counter weight inside the current balancer. I ordered a neutral balancer to replace what is currently on there. Start changing the dynamics of an engine and you start chasing your tail.
I believe it was given a short block and a complete 69 dated head . Everything else is stock. Still hope I don't have to machine the new balancer .
Marshal