Headers (but not the usual question...)
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 349
Likes: 62
From: Geelong, Australia
Headers (but not the usual question...)
Hi All,
I think it's been pretty well establsihed that headers on their own won't do much (if anything) for increasing power on a mild gen 1 350 with an otherwise stock exhaust.
My question is would they do anything for improving the sound? I have a 350 (don't know what if any mods) with a pretty stock exhaust other than Magnaflow mufflers (sorry don't know if they're baffled or straight through) and while the overall sound level is OK, it just doesn't have that muscle car rumble.
I know I could change the mufflers for some Flowmasters or similar, but I like the Magnaflows as they don't drone at all. Just wondering if fitting some headers (shorties or long tubes) would do anything towards beefing up the sound at idle and/or cruising?
Thanks in advance,
Brian
I think it's been pretty well establsihed that headers on their own won't do much (if anything) for increasing power on a mild gen 1 350 with an otherwise stock exhaust.
My question is would they do anything for improving the sound? I have a 350 (don't know what if any mods) with a pretty stock exhaust other than Magnaflow mufflers (sorry don't know if they're baffled or straight through) and while the overall sound level is OK, it just doesn't have that muscle car rumble.
I know I could change the mufflers for some Flowmasters or similar, but I like the Magnaflows as they don't drone at all. Just wondering if fitting some headers (shorties or long tubes) would do anything towards beefing up the sound at idle and/or cruising?
Thanks in advance,
Brian
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
I have never heard anyone say they were sorry they put headers on.
Minor H.P. increase with stock engine.
Will require new exhaust configuration.
Plug wire insulation, etc.
HOWEVER, you will never get that "muscle car sound" that you seek with cast iron, heavy, choking / restricting, manifolds.
Go For It !
Minor H.P. increase with stock engine.
Will require new exhaust configuration.
Plug wire insulation, etc.
HOWEVER, you will never get that "muscle car sound" that you seek with cast iron, heavy, choking / restricting, manifolds.
Go For It !
Last edited by HeadsU.P.; Sep 8, 2021 at 11:03 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,399
Likes: 247
From: San Jose CA
For anyone who’s lived this experiment or observed the results on various tests out there - I’d say the opposite is true. It’s well established that headers are a good improvement for even mild 350s.
My question is would they do anything for improving the sound? I have a 350 (don't know what if any mods) with a pretty stock exhaust other than Magnaflow mufflers (sorry don't know if they're baffled or straight through) and while the overall sound level is OK, it just doesn't have that muscle car rumble.
Is my vette stock?? HAHA
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 20,185
Likes: 9,321
From: Im not allowed to tell you
2020 C3 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
2019 C3 of Year Winner (performance mods)
2016 C3 of Year Finalist
all the hosrepower gains are in the upper RPM range above 5000 rpm, to feel anything you need to increase torque. Thats what gets the car moving off the line and snaps your head back, horsepower just gets you to the finish line faster
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 349
Likes: 62
From: Geelong, Australia
Given the other mods I'd have to make to the exhaust to accomodate long tube headers it's probably not worth it.
Cheers,
Brian
Last edited by BrianOz; Sep 9, 2021 at 02:43 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,149
Likes: 265
From: The frozen wastes...
I have never heard anyone say they were sorry they put headers on.
Minor H.P. increase with stock engine.
Will require new exhaust configuration.
Plug wire insulation, etc.
HOWEVER, you will never get that "muscle car sound" that you seek with cast iron, heavy, choking / restricting, manifolds.
Go For It !
Minor H.P. increase with stock engine.
Will require new exhaust configuration.
Plug wire insulation, etc.
HOWEVER, you will never get that "muscle car sound" that you seek with cast iron, heavy, choking / restricting, manifolds.
Go For It !
All that said, HeadsUP is right. Get the headers. But buy QUALITY headers. Nothing will ruin your love ov cars quicker than an old school, cheap, garbage longtube. They dont fit well, they leak, they 'tick', and some dont even flow well. Buy a GOOD header... and that means spend the money. Headers themselves dont really make a certain sound... but a front-to-back well designed quality exhaust system creates a sound that few cars have... and EVERYONE loves.
Is my vette stock?? HAHA
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 20,185
Likes: 9,321
From: Im not allowed to tell you
2020 C3 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
2019 C3 of Year Winner (performance mods)
2016 C3 of Year Finalist
I try to go with a good carb and intake, then heads, then cam....somewhere in there I would re-ring the motor and upgrade the pistons to get the compression you want.
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Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 349
Likes: 62
From: Geelong, Australia
Thanks for the comments and I've been down the upgrades path more than once in the Mustang world. This time around I'm trying not get on that merry go round - the '69 350/350 4 speed I bought won't fry the tyres or snap your head back in the lower gears but it's a nice cruiser with decent pace and enough shove to keep up with the cut and thrust of modern traffic. It just doesn't have much of a sound - the idle is a little too smooth and exhaust a little too quiet.
I know I can get the sound good at idle by putting on some Flowmaster 40s or similar chambered mufflers, but every classic I've had with that kind of setup has droned at one RPM range or another and I don't want to go there. Was just wondering if there was another way to get what I want without redoing the complete exhaust, cam, intake, carby, etc.
Cheers,
Brian
I know I can get the sound good at idle by putting on some Flowmaster 40s or similar chambered mufflers, but every classic I've had with that kind of setup has droned at one RPM range or another and I don't want to go there. Was just wondering if there was another way to get what I want without redoing the complete exhaust, cam, intake, carby, etc.
Cheers,
Brian
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,399
Likes: 247
From: San Jose CA
Shorty headers have most of their benefits up high, although I haven’t seen the actual experimentation for a small block in this regard, only newer powerplants.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,399
Likes: 247
From: San Jose CA
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/46...-engine-build/
The very first mod they do to their Goodwrench 350 is long tube headers. In stock form, with a GM aluminum intake and factory manifolds (though not stated which manifolds), they made 239 hp @ 4300 RPM and 324 lb-ft @ 3700.
They then replace the manifolds with 1 5/8” headers and add 53lb-ft torque @ 3400 RPM and 17hp @ 4500.
On this motor a 53 lb-ft torque jump in the mid-3k range is MASSIVE. This is what I felt in my real world experiment on my 78 Corvette and the 0-60 times backed it up.
The Goodwrench 350 uses the same 462624 heads as a late 70’s L-48 and the same 194/202 0.390/0.410 cam. It’s all topped off with a nice smog era “8-ish” to 1 compression ratio that measures differently depending on which motor you test.
The very first mod they do to their Goodwrench 350 is long tube headers. In stock form, with a GM aluminum intake and factory manifolds (though not stated which manifolds), they made 239 hp @ 4300 RPM and 324 lb-ft @ 3700.
They then replace the manifolds with 1 5/8” headers and add 53lb-ft torque @ 3400 RPM and 17hp @ 4500.
On this motor a 53 lb-ft torque jump in the mid-3k range is MASSIVE. This is what I felt in my real world experiment on my 78 Corvette and the 0-60 times backed it up.
The Goodwrench 350 uses the same 462624 heads as a late 70’s L-48 and the same 194/202 0.390/0.410 cam. It’s all topped off with a nice smog era “8-ish” to 1 compression ratio that measures differently depending on which motor you test.
Racer
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 278
Likes: 43
From: Kansas
I have to disagree entirely. Long tube headers increase power across the rpm with big gains in the mid range and top end. other mods enhance this further. Single best modification outside of optimizing the timing and timing curve you can do to a stock engine.
Pro
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 648
Likes: 353
From: Portland, Oregon
I have two 78’s with almost identical L48 engines. Both have 2.25” pipes high-flow cats and Magnaflow mufflers. One is stock Y-pipes thru one cat, the other is dual with two cats and Stan’s tri-Y headers. To me the dual/headers has a bit of an unpleasant drone at idle and very slow cruise. My neighbor tells me both cars sound the same. Coming and going he can’t tell which car I’m driving by sound alone.
If you want a louder exhaust you need bigger pipes. Best exhaust I could come up with would also accommodate future engine improvements; Stan’s tri-Y headers, 3” pipes, X-pipe, UK Vortex mufflers; all straight out the back with the spare tire deleted. The pitch of the sound produced is a function of length and total volume. Don’t remember the name, but there’s an app for ideal exhaust length. For fine tuning a trombone-slide section would allow tuning like musical instruments.
The character of the sound is cam, compression, timing and exhaust material
If you want a louder exhaust you need bigger pipes. Best exhaust I could come up with would also accommodate future engine improvements; Stan’s tri-Y headers, 3” pipes, X-pipe, UK Vortex mufflers; all straight out the back with the spare tire deleted. The pitch of the sound produced is a function of length and total volume. Don’t remember the name, but there’s an app for ideal exhaust length. For fine tuning a trombone-slide section would allow tuning like musical instruments.
The character of the sound is cam, compression, timing and exhaust material
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,775
Likes: 585
From: Texas
Thanks for the comments and I've been down the upgrades path more than once in the Mustang world. This time around I'm trying not get on that merry go round - the '69 350/350 4 speed I bought won't fry the tyres or snap your head back in the lower gears but it's a nice cruiser with decent pace and enough shove to keep up with the cut and thrust of modern traffic. It just doesn't have much of a sound - the idle is a little too smooth and exhaust a little too quiet.
I know I can get the sound good at idle by putting on some Flowmaster 40s or similar chambered mufflers, but every classic I've had with that kind of setup has droned at one RPM range or another and I don't want to go there. Was just wondering if there was another way to get what I want without redoing the complete exhaust, cam, intake, carby, etc.
Cheers,
Brian
I know I can get the sound good at idle by putting on some Flowmaster 40s or similar chambered mufflers, but every classic I've had with that kind of setup has droned at one RPM range or another and I don't want to go there. Was just wondering if there was another way to get what I want without redoing the complete exhaust, cam, intake, carby, etc.
Cheers,
Brian
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,030
Likes: 363
From: Lubbock Texas
I've never been around any vehicle with an American V8 engine that did not have a noticeable improvement in performance and sound after replacing restrictive factory exhaust manifolds with headers of any type. However, I think running Tri-Y headers on an otherwise stock engine would be just what it needs.
DC
DC
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,232
Likes: 1,232
From: PHX AZ
rubber 3 gears
A cross-over pipe would help!
Bri I have had the L-46 for 45 years now.
It's got 36k on it.
I can get rubber in 3 gears. (two nice long 'patches' and a healthy CHIRP!) What is wrong with your car?
Bri I have had the L-46 for 45 years now.
It's got 36k on it.
I can get rubber in 3 gears. (two nice long 'patches' and a healthy CHIRP!) What is wrong with your car?
Last edited by L-46man; Sep 9, 2021 at 06:00 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 2,150
From: Golden Colorado
Long tube headers improve both sound AND performance on sbc engines. BB with Corvette manifolds not as much. (Little know fact, stock Vette BB exhaust are actually pretty good as is)
Gains are dependent on collector length more than you would think. An old drag racer trick was put a crayon stripe on the length of the collector and cut to length where the melt ended. Longer aids midrange, shorter helps top end. Your results may vary.
Gains are dependent on collector length more than you would think. An old drag racer trick was put a crayon stripe on the length of the collector and cut to length where the melt ended. Longer aids midrange, shorter helps top end. Your results may vary.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 349
Likes: 62
From: Geelong, Australia
Suppose I should also say my experience thus far with fittling headers to otherwise stock classics without a heap of supporting mods has been a couple of small block auto Mustangs. In both cases the butt dyno hasn't detected any real difference but maybe the factory log style manifolds on those cars aren't as restrictive as the rams horns on the SBCs?
In any event, I'm happy to look at mods down the track but there is a heap of other more boring things to do on the 'vette first like aligning bumpers, renewing trim pieces and suspension bushes, etc. Was hopng for a quick win in terms of improving the sound a little but looks like it's best to wait until I'm ready to tackle the whole performance improvement can of worms.
Cheers,
Brian
Last edited by BrianOz; Sep 9, 2021 at 09:37 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,149
Likes: 265
From: The frozen wastes...
Hahahah... based on your posting... i'd say that the fact you can TUNE an engine, and a car... has a LOT to do with it. You can lose 50HP with a bad tune, and sometimes even if the loss is not so drastic, the driveability can suffer bad enough you'll think its 50HP. I have seen and heard some absolutely **** tunes on C3's... some sound like rez trucks that have never had an oil change in 350K miles.