Both the Progression Distributor and the Black Box are interesting products. I switched over to Sniper 2 EFI a couple of years ago but kept my old MSD ignition system since my tach is driven off the distributor being a 1971 Vette. I've been battling some strange issues and I think Keith and I have concluded it's probably ignition related. I'm removing my distributor this weekend to go over it with a fine tooth comb. It's really old and needs a good going through anyway. I don't want to convert my tach to electronic mainly because i don't want to take the dash apart (again). That leads me to get a Progression system or the Black Box as Holley Hyperspark doesn't offer a tach drive distributor.
I really like the price point of the Black Box if it does what it claims. Will it work with a digital 6AL MSD box? Any members here have one?

 

I have zero experience with a black box.
But this chart shows what is "desireable" for a timing curve. In 2-D graph form.

Approximately 20*more timing is an advantage at part throttle, ie: 2500 rpm cruise (40-45*). Vs a mechanical advance only curve of maybe 20*.

A similar curve in Table format looks like this:

This was my first Progression Ignition curve 5 minutes after I received my unit.

This is a 14* initial timing, and 35* total timing, all-in at 3000 rpm curve. With 12* vacuum advance added on top of that.
The top row is W.O.T. only.

I circled in red my 15" vacuum at idle (50 kPa). My street cam will creep up to 18 vac at cruise (40kPa).

I changed the 850 idle rpm to always 24*, regardless of fluctuating vacuum, for stability.
At 650 rpm I gave a 5* bump to help maintain a stable idle, to help with A/C.

I have the ignition rpm limiter set for 6500 rpm, it is 300rpm wide, soft touch, both random & progressive.
Low rpm start mode (~350 rpm) has retarded spark, ~14* IIRC.

The blue circle area is the part throttle area. Optimizing the timing in this area by maximizing ignition timing while controlling throttle transition "rattle" will definately optimize fuel economy. And you can change it from the car, while moving, one cell at a time. I am really looking forward to tuning this way! Last time I did this was with an adjustable vac can, and a vacuum gauge taped to my windshield. This is sooo easy in comparison. I anticipate I may need more the 36* @ 2000rpm @ 18" (40kPa) than the table has now. I will creep up on it slowly.

Launch rpm is controlled by the blue wire trigger. And then for "x" seconds first gear "Y" retarded spark kicks in for traction control. I may need that with a strong BBC. To both limit wheelspin and save IRS parts. LOL

Another graph:
I like the way these guys labeled the sections.

Tuning is primarily tweaking the degrees advance in the red circle.

 

I just fired up my Blueprint BP350CT with a Progression Ignition distributor and wow that is easy to tune. No springs or weights to mess with and you can see on your phone or tablet the timing while the engine is running.

JT

 

Have fun tuning!

Here is an excellent procedure from SWDuke MSME presented at a Corvette National Convention

 

No one is a bigger dinosaur than me, and I'm tempted. When I think of all the hours I spent getting my timing curve exactly where I wanted it, this thing looks very appealing. As for all the concerns about electronics and reliability - all valid, but then I had the same concerns when we went from points to HEI. Bottom line is I have my curve where I want it, but if I was doing it over again, I would be seriously considering this system.

 

I am loving the timing table MAP that this distributor provides.
Honestly it is one of the best features of an EFI system, and this one lets you keep the carb, for that vintage look.

Here is a comparison, in a 3D map, of a typical analog timing table vs a typical digital timing table, as presented by SWDuke at a National Convention, way back in 2012.



You can see how much more complicated the digital timing MAP can be tuned

And this is what Claude A.I. said about my specific engine combination just yesterday, when I was asking it about what to do to optimize fuel mileage.(HP is easy, everyone knows that one) Gas mileage increases happen at cruise at very light throttle, around 10%, and very high vacuum. It becomes essential to get the timing correct in that zone for optimum mileage.



This Progression distributor lets you do things that an analog distributor just is not capable of. Like develop the complicated digital advance map above.
I now have a recipie for a 500HP BBC that gets 20 mpg on the highway, with a carb, looks 1970 original, and runs 12 flat at the track.

Wouldn't that be a hoot?

And Claude is far from stupid, it predicts 10-11 mpg in town. Oh well.

I already have my Progression distributor, and it already has it's first program in it.

I have found at least a dozen people who get 20+ mpg hwy with 400+HP 383+ N.A. V8 engines.
So why should we settle for 12-14MPG?

 

This is getting very interesting. I had to move my distributor by 1/2 tooth to get it more or less square with the car and reset my timing using the basic settings. I'm still in the learning curve and just stoked that my new engine is running smoothly.

JT

 

I updated my ZZ4 to a Progression Ignition system a few weeks ago. Went from a well tuned Dragonfire to the new Progression. Night and day difference. Will never own another older car without one. Easy tune and adjustment, easy start, zero hesitation, no popping or gurgling on deceleration and security to boot! Just set it oriented to 10-degress, clamp it down and start. Never have to touch it again. I was hesitant when I saw the price, but well worth it.

 

I read through the paper, too. I was surprised by the jagginess of the B table. I bet that's derived. A modern engine has a lot more inputs. The base map of vacuum and RPM vs. advance would look more like the table you posted above. But the Y axis here is "engine load", which may be more than just vacuum. You'd have throttle position, mass air flow, coolant temp, and you'd have one or more knock sensors that can provide feedback to dialback timing.

And it can all happen instantly. There's no lazy mechanical arm on your vacuum can. No lazy weights on your distributor. And no distributor! To paraphrase someone you may have heard of. the best distributor is no distributor.

This should be a new thread (feel free to start it), but there are a few other ways to solve this problem. Asking AI, it seems that you can make an LS-ish ignition timing system with off the shelf parts for a Gen 1 SBC (or BBC).

You'd need a 58 (or 24) tooth timing kit from https://www.eficonnection.com/
You'd need to retain the distributor for a cam sync sensor (to choose which bank to fire), and to run the oil pump

Then you can use an MSD 6014 LS ignition and 8 LS coil-on-plug modules.
Daytona Smart Spark also makes something similar.
Both of these are programmable to get whatever ignition timing table you want. But they are still limited to MAP, RPM, and add ECT for inputs.

And this is why people just LS swap things. But if you really want a rip-roaring Gen 1 engine, you can add a bunch more electronics.

 

Oh bikespace don't be such a debby downer.LOL

This is a great new tool.

Some of us just have no interest in piles of electronics, in these old classics. But then some folks do.

But this distributor is drop in and play. EZ pezy. Everything an LS swap is not.

I kind of think of it as one step toward a full-on terminator X system.

And this still looks classic.

 

Was thinking along this line as well.

Bikespace, that was interesting to read about the Ls system. I’ll look more into that as well and look for reviews on how well this system works and difficulty in programming it to work with my GM ZZ383 that Mooser & I dropped in summer 2014. Firstly at this point my focus is 100% on helping my wife through her leukaemia journey.

 

You are correct. This is absolutely what I would buy if I needed a new distributor for a Gen 1 SBC.

I was expecting a different answer, so I went down the rabbit hole to see what I would need to do to eliminate the distributor completely on a Gen 1 SBC. Well, you can't because you need to run the oil pump. But you need to add more parts that total more than the price of an LS swap. It was a lot cheaper to do this exercise with AI than to buy all the stuff and find out I was wrong.

Anyway, here's my entire though process explained in meme-format.

 

Gen 1 BB & SB race cars often run crank triggers, they fit on the front of the balancer.
The biggest and almost unsurmountable difference is the cylinder heads.
Even the best AFR Gen 1 heads still have the two center exhaust ports that are siamized or squeezed together. They run hot.
The LS motors have all 4 intakes and all 4 exhaust ports evenly spaced from each other, and I believe all 4 are exactly identical to each other.
I would love to see a head to head comparison of a state of the art N.A. Gen 1 vs an N.A. LS.
I would guess they are pretty close on power. The LS would have better cruise MPG due to the perfectly even port arrangement, and leaner running capability at cruise.
There were some SB2 ? head gen 1 SB that had a very LS type even spaced intake and exhaust port arrangement.
The one I saw was a over 900HP 327 cu in or so. Tunnel ram near a foot tall.

 

The ability to view the current advance at any RPM on the handheld display is pretty cool. Also to be able to change timing setting with the touch of a button and view the results while driving is definitely cool

 

FWIW:
All Gen II sbc LT1 & LT4 I've seen do have a faux distributor (just the lower half Below the bowl) to connect camshaft dist gear and oil pump.
Yes, their functional distributor is located at front cover and is driven directly from nose of camshaft. Another twist of Gen II wonky engineering.
Seems there are a few aftermarket companies that sell a similar faux distributor, which also doubles as an Ignition Trigger/camsync. Seems eficonnection has same.

 

I really like the idea of the app tunable distributor, but the only thing that comes to mind is to use it as a tool. I would want to use it to develop an optimum ignition map and then try to recurve as close as possible on a conventional HEI. I just don't want to be on the road somewhere with a Progression Ignition when it fails. Nobody will be able to help. I can get HEI parts anywhere. Maybe it's just me.

 

I've looked for this information in the past. I've seen Gen 1 heads compared, and Gen 3 heads compared, but nothing that puts all of that together.

But AI can do the math for us. I'll post in your AI thread, as this is getting well away from the point of this thread.

 

My money is on good LS heads beating any Gen 1 head.

 

Pretty much.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-combos-2.html

I didn't bother with any stock Gen 1 heads, since they are all trash, but let Grok pick an aftermarket assortment.