Any thoughts on the borgeson gearbox upgrade to a 69 C3 that leaks and slack steering?

 

Well they all leak... and the slack is normally from the rag joint or adjustment on the gearbox but Ive read great things about the borgeson giving a bit more modern feel to the steering and am considering it myself as a future upgrade.

 

It’s a worthwhile upgrade and if your steering system needs an overhaul, it’s likely cheaper and easier to go with Borgeson than to chase down the other parts.

 

I replaced my rag joint, tightened up the slack on the bearings in the steering and moved the tierod ends in closer to the wheel and its tight and reactive. All it cost was the ragjoint rebuild kit. If your system is leaking figure out exactly where and repair it. I bought new hoses, a rebuilt power steering valve and a
Tuff stuff pump. No more leaks

If you do go to a brgeson look at tuffstuff for the pump. The make quality parts
I would look at what you need to change to do a borg swap. I think you need to do surgery on your steering column and a newer steering pump in a addition to the steering box

 

I have a poly rag joint assy on order myself...$45 with tax and shipping. Ive been told there are other ways to improve the feel of the existing steering. one is a smaller crank pulley to underdrive the power steering pump. I did have to replace my hoses and rebuild the cylinder when I bought my car in 2012. so far ive been lucky. The rebuild kit is inexpensive and pretty easy to install vs buying a rebuilt one.

My uncle has a 76 and hes replaced his hoses and cylinder twice in the last 2000 miles battling leaks. He told me the rag joint made a huge difference in steering. If I ever pull the engine again im installing a borgeson system but first im working on the suspension myself so it doesnt hop all over the road at the slightest imperfection. I feel thats more my issue now with needing both hands on the wheel.

 

I had the crazy hopping in the rear due to it being over an inch toed in when I first bought my car. The spec is around 0.125 to 0.250 total toe going by memory. I didnt know they made a poly rag joint.

 

I did manual to Borgeson and couldn't be happier. Two finger steering. Not that difficult to install. I would start with a complete kit including new pump. Do your research on the rag joint connections. I have the Ididit column and had to cut 2 inches off the end, that was kind of scary, measure 10 times, cut once. No leaks.

 

See thats just it.. The stock corvette power steering is TOO light for many. I have what I would call light two finger steering now.

 

thanks Ill look at that once I get my new coil overs and rear spring in.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/202598502358

 

Whatever you do, you'll need to dial it in. Alignment (especially caster), and power steering pump pressure make a big difference in feel.

I converted my 80 to manual steering. I love it for that car. Plenty of room for headers, and precise steering.

I converted my wife's 79 to Borgeson. She loves it. The steering is very light, and quicker than stock.

Both have Flaming River U-Joints to replace the rag joint. If I were Auto-Xing a car, I'd want a Borgeson in my 80 as well, just for the quicker ratio.

Here's the longest running Borgeson thread I'm aware of.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...n-install.html

 

Light steering can be adjusted by replacing the flow restrictor in the pump. Did this when I installed a flaming river rack in my 78.

left 1.3 gpm vs the factory 78 flow control valve ~ 2.x gpm . Depending on the PS pump type

below is a link to the company that helped me get the right piece.

Turn One Steering - Steering Products

tech note on flow vs pressure. And why and what each do.
Turn One Steering - Posts

 

I would like Gary Ramadei to review this video and see if this guy is doing this right. Just because some dude makes a video does not mean he knows what he is doing. I suspect there is something wrong with the way this guy is "adjusting" the factory steering box. I also did not know anyone was making a poly rag joint, and wonder if this is a solution to the poor rag joints that have been available.

 

The Flaming River U-Joint is the solution to the poor quality rag joints, although it does NOT accommodate length changes along the steering axis, which the original did.

If you want to have @GTR1999 watch a YouTube video, why not just send him your steering box instead. I did, and it came out awesome!

 

I am not the OP.here. I already have had Gary rebuild two steering boxes, one for the 77, one for the 69, AND he has rebuilt my 69 trailing arms and differential.

I am not sure about the u-joint deal....but not really looking to change. I have an original NOS u-joint on the 77, and bought one for the 69.

 

Your welcome to your opinion and for some, removing and sending the box off and paying top dollar for an expert pro might be the way to go. Different folks different strokes.. Someone doing work to their own car and sharing it doesnt necessarily make it wrong or sketchy either. and for the record there are multiple you tube videos on this for both a c3 and other vehicles with this type of steering. For me, I just needed the play from wear adjusted out. It wasnt terrible before but its much better after.
I made the well known common saginaw box adjustments to a couple vehicles Ive owned over the years with this type of steering box. theres nothing special about the c3 steering box. In fact I made the adjustment to the lower bushing just yesterday in my 107k c3 steering box with a huge improvement in steering and it virtually removed all the play with whats left I suspect coming from the old rag joint.. I have the poly rag joint but will need to remove my master cylinder to replace that.

Disclaimer, I know to make adjustments in small amounts on these steering boxes since you can easily damage the gears inside by over tightening the adjustments. The result of over adjusting is steering that feels noticeably tight and stiff and at that point damage can be done very quickly to the gear faces

 

I will let Gary speak for himself, and the technical adjustments on the steering box. Seems hard to believe that all you have to do is tighten up those nuts, and all is well with no secondary or adverse results.

Secondly, you get way more than you are paying for when you have him rebuild. I would not call it "top dollar". Its a very reasonable price for the level of service you get, and the amount of work he does.

 

To be clear, If its more than buying a typical rebuilt box which I assume it is judging by the level of care he typically puts into things that I suspect he would also be charging more than others typically do for this job to be worth his efforts. Everyone has a different opinion on whats acceptable for some its precision right down to blueprinting. That is what I mean by paying top dollar I do not mean to imply he "overcharges".
As for the adjustment points on the steering box to remove play between the gears inside, My understanding and experience is thats what they are there for. I drove my old dodge ram for 13 years with no issues after making these same adjustments from a youtube video. Its not just a matter of "tightening nuts" but rather adjusting to remove play and slop developed from wear on the gear and bushing surfaces. At a certain point more work is needed if the wear is too great. Its also fair to say some may not be technically inclined enough to mess with this without the possibility of them causing damage but the same can be said for most repairs or adjustments.

Lars is well know for being the best at rebuilding and setting up quadrajet carbs but by the same token that doesnt mean there arent plenty of car owners or shops that havent successfully done it themselves either.

IMO replacing rag joints with ujoints is also swapping one set of failure points/ drawbacks for another besides the possible safety aspect . Ive replaced the steering intermediate shafts in 3 vehicles so far from either wear causing play or ujoints seizing up. I just went through this on my 7 year old ram this summer actually.

 

Since my name has been mentioned and I watched the video I would just like to make some points.

1. I don't know the person in the video, he seems like an ok guy who likes to work on his cars which is fine with me.
2. You guys can follow any path you want when it comes to these boxes. Theory is the same with the boxes of the era. The vette boxes were the same for both manual and power as many know.
3. In order to correctly rebuild or adjust these boxes you need to understand just what you may be doing and what condition they may be in from the start.
4. I've read many times where guys say it's not hard and a common vendor kit is all you need. Again, do things as you will. However, many of the kits no longer come with cover bushings, some without any bushings and if they do, they are a little looser to compensate for sector OD and the compression of the ID of the bushing when installed. It is not hard to slap in kit parts, but try and fit custom bushings, know how to adjust the internal parts, that is a little different.
5. You should understand what high lash, true center, arm center, and preload mean and how to check and correctly adjust them.
6. You should have good tools and the best for this job is a dial 0-30 in/lb TW.

Now points in the video

1. The original rag is worn out, no question. The new one, purchased from a very questionable vendor, is said to be poly. I have not seen that one in hand, I have seen some thick rubber discs in some rags. They are imported and they are cheap. If it is poly I would not use one- you have to make your own decision. Some questioned me 10-15 years ago when I said I would not use poly in TA's. At the time many said the same thing, many ignored it and used them because it was the latest and greatest fad to be up online. Now 10-15 years later those same bushings are literally falling apart. Is that what you want in between you and the steering box? If so, go ahead but make sure you have good insurance and don't kill anyone. I'll use a NOS rag designed and proven for years or I would use a u-joint over this poly rag, but hey it's only $30. Another thing shown is pushing back on the upper column rag half. Most are not going to move free, if force is applied most likely the column is going to collapse into the outer mast as it is supposed to under impact. If this happens and you don't know it then when you go to install your new rag the gap will be too much and if you get the rag in place, it won't be flat as it should be. It will be "S" bent leading to early failure. If it is collapsed, you can now install a Jeep box or drive the column back out.
2. There are 2 external adjustments to these boxes. The first is the large nut, locked in place with a ring. It should not be adjusted on the car because you won't get an accurate adjustment that way. Why? because that nut adjusts the worm's ball screw bearing preload- it has nothing to do with adjusting the column, not sure where that came from. Sounds good but is completely wrong. The method of tightening and backing off a 1/4 turn has been one that has been mentioned here for years, usually dealing with the lash screw in the cover, not the preload. It is completely wrong and following that advice who knows where the preload is going to be. It is blindly making an adjustment. In fact, original boxes more than likely do not have any preload left. Most times the grease is dried out and becomes an acidic sludge that attacks the bearings and worm ball screw ends. The resulting check on used boxes for preload most times is very choppy, like a radical cam would show on a tach. Adjustment at that stage is pointless but may help those think they're doing the right thing. A 1/4 turn can be huge when you start to get to preload of around 5 in/lb, backing off drops it back down to nothing.
3. Now the lash adjustment in the cover. First, you have to understand the teeth of the sector and worm nut are tapered. Tightening them down pushes the taper tighter, and you get tighter steering. Simple right? well if you over adjust it as the video states then it can bind- yes very true. However, there is no reference where the adjustment is being made and where the true center and high lash is, so over adjustment will also wear out the sectors center tooth much faster than it should. Again, the wrong adjustment method is shown- tightening up on an unknown location and backing off a 1/4 turn- completely idiotic, as any adjustment made is now backed off.

Many, as in most, of these boxes from 1963-1982 where not set up on high lash and the steering results suffered. Sometimes they were loose, most times they were snug, but very few times were they dialed in as they should be. I know the difference and how to correct it but I'm no longer giving away things that I had to learn the hard way over years of working on these cars. I say this not against the car owner but rather the unscrupulous rebuilders out there that take the names of my work, cheapen them, and then sell them to you guys. Just keep in mind Cheap and quality never go together whether it is corvette work, house remodeling, etc. But then there's places like the one the video guy got his rag from, they'll sell you a wholesaler's rebuilt box without any concern at all and if you are unaware, you won't know the difference. So good luck is about all I can offer, do as you will. Those that have attended any of my seminars over the years know the difference as they saw it firsthand with samples of the work. This response is a little of what is covered at a seminar. I no longer attend Carllsle so those days are over for now. I do hold them in CT at times but that is now covid related. I haven't held any since.

 

Just to clarify the poly rag joint he used was from advance auto, The one he purchased from corvette mods was the same type but for a later year and didnt fit. I purchased my rag joint from a different corvette supply vendor which I have used many times with no issues. I have been considering the borgeson upgrade for years now but now that my car is steering as well as it is I may just give the power steering restrictor a try at this point.

 

Did a search on Advance Auto website for C3 Corvette steering coupler. Search shows a "Lares" brand coupler, and described as a "rubber" disc. In the photo, it does appear to have some fabric or steel mesh layers. They also have Dorman repair kits. I suspect that ALL vendors selling these are selling the same exact manufacturer part.

The guy in the video in this thread describes his as a "poly" coupler. I don't believe rubber and poly are the same thing (and just because this guy makes a video does not mean he knows anything). At least they are not when it comes to all the other bushings on the car. Solid rubber is also not the same as the OEM design that had multiple layers of fabric / steel mesh type material embedded into the rubber. And I have found that different cars from the C3 era had different amounts of fabric / steel material embedded. Some cars had more than others. I also am not stating that a true poly coupler would be a good replacement.

Point is, it does not appear we have available to us the quality parts GM originally designed for a steering coupler. Gary has explained why in other threads....the cost of the material exceeds the value for vendors to produce them. I fortunately located original GM NOS parts for both my 77 and the 69. When those are worn out.....I will have to deal with it.