From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium?
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
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From: Apex NC
From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium?
First off, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do with their own car. You bought it, you paid for it, do with it as you see fit. I just want to try to understand the reasoning behind something I've noticed here on this forum.
I've kept up with threads and noticed that some folks pay a premium for a numbers matching car, and in some cases and NCRS top-flight car, then go about modding the car. Why pay the premium for a stock, numbers matching car in the first place? It's essentially paying for a certain degree of originality and then systematically dismantling and removing that which justified the premium in the price. Note: I never said that it was WRONG, IMMORAL, or bad. I just don't understand why someone would pay a premium for a numbers matching car and then change that which justified (rightly or wrongly) the premium paid. Why not buy a NOM car in equivalent condition for much less money?
Maybe I'm all wet here. Can some of you shed some light?
I've kept up with threads and noticed that some folks pay a premium for a numbers matching car, and in some cases and NCRS top-flight car, then go about modding the car. Why pay the premium for a stock, numbers matching car in the first place? It's essentially paying for a certain degree of originality and then systematically dismantling and removing that which justified the premium in the price. Note: I never said that it was WRONG, IMMORAL, or bad. I just don't understand why someone would pay a premium for a numbers matching car and then change that which justified (rightly or wrongly) the premium paid. Why not buy a NOM car in equivalent condition for much less money?
Maybe I'm all wet here. Can some of you shed some light?
Race Director
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: NM
Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (sb69coupe)
If you are going to hot rod it or highly modify the car then start with a non-numbers car. They will be cheaper. Also the true numbers cars are getting fewer and fewer so help perserve the originals.
tom...
tom...
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From: Semper ubi, sub ubi
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Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (sb69coupe)
Ditto that :iagree:
I think it is because it is so much fun to mod a Corvette and customize it to your own taste. I guess they think if the start with a numbers matching car, they can always put the car back to original when they sell it.
I think it is because it is so much fun to mod a Corvette and customize it to your own taste. I guess they think if the start with a numbers matching car, they can always put the car back to original when they sell it.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Wichita KS
Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (sb69coupe)
sb69coupe,
I don't know if there is an answer. Why do people buy a new Harley-Davidson immediately begin modifying it?
Perhaps, when it is "perfect" it is only a Corvette - when it is modded it becomes "my" Corvette.
I don't know if there is an answer. Why do people buy a new Harley-Davidson immediately begin modifying it?
Perhaps, when it is "perfect" it is only a Corvette - when it is modded it becomes "my" Corvette.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (sb69coupe)
Shannon, excellent topic. First I agree, it's your car and do with it as you wish, last thing I want is someone telling me what to do with a car I own.
But, if your intentions from the beginning are to make it something you want (customize it, rod it, etc...), then why buy matching #? Now, some get into the hobby or keep a car for a period of time, and then change their minds about what they want, this is a little different. Maybe they buy the car for the value of originality, then after awhile get bored with it? Not sure.
I play both teams. Some cars, due to value, you have to keep orig. Then some, you can pick up at a great deal and do what you want to with them. :yesnod:
Later,
Rob
But, if your intentions from the beginning are to make it something you want (customize it, rod it, etc...), then why buy matching #? Now, some get into the hobby or keep a car for a period of time, and then change their minds about what they want, this is a little different. Maybe they buy the car for the value of originality, then after awhile get bored with it? Not sure.
I play both teams. Some cars, due to value, you have to keep orig. Then some, you can pick up at a great deal and do what you want to with them. :yesnod:
Later,
Rob
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From: Allen TX
Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (RLH)
:iagree:
I'm with all of you. This '69 I just bought several months ago was in very good, restored condition, has some docs that it was a 427/435 L71 car, but the orig. motor was long gone. I didn't pay for a #s matching car in its condition...otherwise, it would have been substantially more.
Now I'm having some fun modifying it. :) I'm a hot-rodder. Can't help it.
I'm with all of you. This '69 I just bought several months ago was in very good, restored condition, has some docs that it was a 427/435 L71 car, but the orig. motor was long gone. I didn't pay for a #s matching car in its condition...otherwise, it would have been substantially more.
Now I'm having some fun modifying it. :) I'm a hot-rodder. Can't help it.
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From: Pearland TX
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Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (Tom73)
If you are going to hot rod it or highly modify the car then start with a non-numbers car. They will be cheaper. Also the true numbers cars are getting fewer and fewer so help perserve the originals.
tom...
tom...
Contraversial view I know....
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From: Olympia WA
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Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (sb69coupe)
Well, my car is a matching numbers car and I am modding it, but there are some unusual mods on my car already. Specifically, my headlights are all glassed in and moved to the grill. Seems like it would be too much to bring those back to stock seeing as all the actuators, lines, buckets etc are long gone.
So, I decided to go with the flow and mod the car. I am still undecided whether or not to use my original engine or store it. I will be putting in a 700R4 in place of the TH400. It is an L48 car, so it's value is not as high as a big block or LT1
If my car were not modded already, I think I would upgrade the engine, but pretty much leave it alone otherwise. I think if you have a matching numbers car, it should be saved and kept that way. Buy a NOM or modded car to play with.
Mike
1972 L48 Stingray (Gonna hit the track, road racing that is...) :)
So, I decided to go with the flow and mod the car. I am still undecided whether or not to use my original engine or store it. I will be putting in a 700R4 in place of the TH400. It is an L48 car, so it's value is not as high as a big block or LT1
If my car were not modded already, I think I would upgrade the engine, but pretty much leave it alone otherwise. I think if you have a matching numbers car, it should be saved and kept that way. Buy a NOM or modded car to play with.
Mike
1972 L48 Stingray (Gonna hit the track, road racing that is...) :)
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From: Roxbury NJ
Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (Shock)
I think some of it has to do with supply and demand. There are only so many cars out there, so when someone finds one they like, they jump on it, numbers or not. As far as I can tell, the "numbers" cars (mine included) don't bring all that much of a premium (~1 or 2k?) unless they're the special high performance cars like LT-1, L71, etc. Maybe there are more people looking for the non-matching cars?
For me, an original car was much less likely to be home to Bubba, and that was a huge reason to pay a little more. :yesnod:
Maybe somebody currently in the market can comment? How much more would a base or average engine car be worth because it has the original engine?
For me, an original car was much less likely to be home to Bubba, and that was a huge reason to pay a little more. :yesnod:
Maybe somebody currently in the market can comment? How much more would a base or average engine car be worth because it has the original engine?
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Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (Tom73)
...........the true numbers cars are getting fewer and fewer so help perserve the originals.
tom...
tom...
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: NC USA
Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (RLH)
Shannon,
Luckily, I lurked here so I new what the situation was before I bought mine. Then all I had to do was actually look at cars, drive them, and my mind was made up. I like to DRIVE my cars so a number's car was not for me. It also came in handy for me because I pitted a numbers small-block car against the NOM BB car to get the guy's price down since he was too high. I do have utmost respect for NCRS guys since they spend too much time getting just the right finishes, matching parts, etc. to satisfy judges. Hell, if I had boatloads of $$ and garage space to match, I would probably have a numbers car to go with my current toy. I do disagree with trashing a numbers car with irreversable mods since they are getting harder to find.
Luckily, I lurked here so I new what the situation was before I bought mine. Then all I had to do was actually look at cars, drive them, and my mind was made up. I like to DRIVE my cars so a number's car was not for me. It also came in handy for me because I pitted a numbers small-block car against the NOM BB car to get the guy's price down since he was too high. I do have utmost respect for NCRS guys since they spend too much time getting just the right finishes, matching parts, etc. to satisfy judges. Hell, if I had boatloads of $$ and garage space to match, I would probably have a numbers car to go with my current toy. I do disagree with trashing a numbers car with irreversable mods since they are getting harder to find.
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Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Huntersville NC
Anybody here start with an NCRS Top Flight (trademark sign) car and then substantially modify it??? (I didnt think so! :lol: )_
But I do think it is an evoutionary process, and that process has been dramatically speeded up by this forum! You start out with a 99% stock car and after a while you get a little bored with washing and Zaino, so you try to improve performance, maybe throw in a pertronix, tune the carb, setup the distributor, new mufflers - you go with flowmasters.... uh oh... not stock, then..... headers, and it starts to snowball.
The forum exposes us to tons of ideas and people see wheels they like, and it seems like everybody is buying a new engine, and it becomes much easier to modify your car because everybody else is doing it! :) MJ
And using myself as an example.... I am glad I have the vette that I have ("original engine, matching #s drivetrain")but all of my fantasy projects (that don't involve sex) involve custom/clone/crate engine type cars. :) Specifically: 1. Start with 69 coupe. Add sidepipes, L88 hood, ZL1 paint job, ZZ502... 2. Start with 70 coupe. Add LT1 hood and stripes, LT1 engine from 99 Camaro :lol: head/cam package...
[Modified by MNJack, 11:15 AM 1/18/2003]
But I do think it is an evoutionary process, and that process has been dramatically speeded up by this forum! You start out with a 99% stock car and after a while you get a little bored with washing and Zaino, so you try to improve performance, maybe throw in a pertronix, tune the carb, setup the distributor, new mufflers - you go with flowmasters.... uh oh... not stock, then..... headers, and it starts to snowball.
The forum exposes us to tons of ideas and people see wheels they like, and it seems like everybody is buying a new engine, and it becomes much easier to modify your car because everybody else is doing it! :) MJ
And using myself as an example.... I am glad I have the vette that I have ("original engine, matching #s drivetrain")but all of my fantasy projects (that don't involve sex) involve custom/clone/crate engine type cars. :) Specifically: 1. Start with 69 coupe. Add sidepipes, L88 hood, ZL1 paint job, ZZ502... 2. Start with 70 coupe. Add LT1 hood and stripes, LT1 engine from 99 Camaro :lol: head/cam package...
[Modified by MNJack, 11:15 AM 1/18/2003]
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Re: (MNJack)
When I bought my 71 I didn't know, nor did the previous owner that it was numbers matching, and it was miles from top flight. I did not pay a premium for it. At a puny 270 hp, it wasn't very impressive either. So yeah, I butchered it, but if no body else does it we'll still be alright, huh? :lol:
At my age and situation in life, if I don't live out the fantasy now, I never will. And I promise not to restamp the 502 block to match the vin. :lolg:
Dave
At my age and situation in life, if I don't live out the fantasy now, I never will. And I promise not to restamp the 502 block to match the vin. :lolg:
Dave
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
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From: Apex NC
Re: (MNJack)
Anybody here start with an NCRS Top Flight (trademark sign) car and then substantially modify it??? (I didnt think so! :lol:
I guess I do understand the concept of buying an original numbers car to get a quality foundation to build on. I just wonder what the car would sell for with the mods in place even if the original parts are included? Maybe Flareside could comment on his experience with the '79 he bought that was a modded car but included the original motor, tranny, etc???
Keep in mind that I'm no numbers purist. My car has a CE block, has been whacked in the front with a borderline Bubba repair, and sure ain't judging material. I am sticking with a stock appearance and configuration though.
Great, civil discussion so far. Thanks!
Shannon
[Modified by sb69coupe, 11:40 AM 1/18/2003]
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Fairport NY
Re: (sb69coupe)
I looked for a car that was not numbers matching for that reason, so I could modify it. If I purchased a numbers matching car then I would be trying for a NCRS top flight. I prefer to modify. Rod
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From: Alpharetta GA
Re: From numbers matching to modded, why pay a premium? (sb69coupe)
My car is number matching, but, with some simple mods, that are easily reversible, I have a custom I can enjoy, and, IF, I wanted to sell it, can revert to the value of numbers matching.
If I wanted to go wilder, I could pull the engine/trans, store them, put in the custom engine/trans, go to the shows, etc, then, revert back, and sell the Vette as number matching, and the mods seperate.
Des
If I wanted to go wilder, I could pull the engine/trans, store them, put in the custom engine/trans, go to the shows, etc, then, revert back, and sell the Vette as number matching, and the mods seperate.
Des
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Orange Park Florida
Re: (Red73)
My car had stock drivetrain/suspension rebuilt engine L48 mild cam....
nothing other than maintanance done to it....7 years ago....EXCEPT the body, it was an old show car, repainted twice....flares reduced when this paint job done.....so I added the hood....and redid the interior, and all the mechanicals....don't miss one....
I would not give any extra for originality....in face, depending on the shape it's in....might have to give less......whole lot less.....
GENE
nothing other than maintanance done to it....7 years ago....EXCEPT the body, it was an old show car, repainted twice....flares reduced when this paint job done.....so I added the hood....and redid the interior, and all the mechanicals....don't miss one....
I would not give any extra for originality....in face, depending on the shape it's in....might have to give less......whole lot less.....
GENE
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From: Roxbury NJ
Re: (sb69coupe)
Shannon, IMO anything you put into mods is lost money if you sell the car with them in place. My '79 was a good example of that, since I didn't really pay more for it because of all the extras. A nice, stock 4-speed L-82 '79 would have been worth the same price. I wound up selling it for just about what I paid for it, and got to keep thousands in extra parts, a new 4.11 rear, the 406 small block, etc. Not bad! :)
Someone could make a killing buying all these forum modified cars and putting them back to stock.
Someone could make a killing buying all these forum modified cars and putting them back to stock.
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From: Lake Wylie SC
Re: (Flareside)
"For me, an original car was much less likely to be home to Bubba, and that was a huge reason to pay a little more."
That's the EXACT reason I'd buy a numbers matching car even if I was going to modify it. The probability that Bubba hasn't been there is better. It doesn't mean he hasn't, but it's less likely.
If you buy a car that's been repainted a completely different color, has a different engine/trans in it, other mods, you start to say "hmm, did they really do it to the level of craftsmanship that I would do."
That's the EXACT reason I'd buy a numbers matching car even if I was going to modify it. The probability that Bubba hasn't been there is better. It doesn't mean he hasn't, but it's less likely.
If you buy a car that's been repainted a completely different color, has a different engine/trans in it, other mods, you start to say "hmm, did they really do it to the level of craftsmanship that I would do."