gkull

Sorry It was dumb to zero deck a new block. The measurements are nice if you understand them. Like possible what weight to be used. Mostly who cares if they are in specs you can't control or change them without a rebuild good luck and looking forward to your cam and head type 😁

OldCarBum

Before you put your engine in the stand, Check the rear of the plate that bolts to the block that has the round tube welded to the back.
My engine builder warned me that he has seen several of the new stands that weren’t welded correctly and the welds broke dropping the engines to the floor without warning.
He builds all his own so he doesn’t worry, but says the new ones sold out on the market today are junk.
He won’t let any go through his shop without rewelding them before they go out the door.

4-vettes

After reading that, I'd sure as heak at least look at that weld!
Imagine having your engine hit the floor!

Jebbysan

Are you going to continue to spec the build or will this be a 42 page build/rant about bashing the last two builders? We all understand what happened to you and why. To beat the **** out of people in every post you make is in poor taste. You can post what you want but why don't you stick to the build?
I am not taking up for either person.....I just think it is bullshit.....and you go on about builders like they are all morons......
I was going to stay out of this but your attitude is toxic and has no place on this forum.

Jebby

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AFR 195 STREET Cylinder Heads, 65 cc Combustion Chamber volume. with optional 7/16-inch Rocker Studs - PN 1040 – AFR Price - $2111

I bought these from AFR directly, because I wanted to order the 7/16-inch rocker stud option, and Summit doesn’t offer that. But the price was the same at Summit for unmodified head. AFR included free shipping.

Because I have the income, I can afford these heads and they are widely respected as the best off-the-shelf 195cc heads available. In my opinion, any other head choice would have been a compromise. They are no more, or no less, than exactly what I need for my engine. I really didn’t seriously even consider any other manufacturer.

Honestly, I thought about using the 180cc version of these heads, in combination with smaller intake / carb and exhaust……because of my idle to 4500 operating range, but I remembered back years ago when I raised this question when first considering a big inch SBC. I got pounced on by many on this forum that a 400 cubic inch engine with a 180 head is a waste of time. Well, years later, I have learned I will make my own decisions, but I do believe at a certain cubic inch, you need more volume. IF you are going to have a larger cylinder volume (displacement) you want to support that with enough incoming air charge, from carb to intake to head to cylinder. But again, an operating range of idle - 4500 is less demanding than 6000 -8000 RPM. I don't want to choke the 400 cubes of displacement, and I don't know where the crossover point is or how to calculate it. I chose the AFR 195 Street head, ordered them, and they are in my garage. Done. The decision is made, and not interested in debating it.

These are the heads I wanted on the first build.

There are multiple reasons I chose these heads, and it’s mostly about getting the right combination with the carb/intake, the exhaust, displacement, cam timing and the operating RPM range I use the engine. It’s hard to talk about head choices without discussing the intake and the carb. The intake system must support the combustion process and help define the output. The exhaust can enhance or restrict it, so is also important.

Over the next few posts, I am going to detail the many factors that I considered in making the decision.

A few years ago, AFR decided to start using China to cast some of their heads. I know that the AFR 180 and 195 Street heads are a single base casting, made in China. I have not been able to find pictures online of these new castings. Even the AFR website shows picture of the old castings. However, AFR has also started marketing a less expensive line of AFR heads called the Enforcer. The Enforcer heads are “as-cast” and do not have the CNC machined ports and combustion chamber the Eliminator heads have, and why they are less expensive. It appears to me that the Enforcer castings are the same castings the Eliminators start with. AFR takes that casting, and then does ALL the CNC machining and assembly in the USA to create the Eliminator 195 heads. Jeremy at AFR told me that they are higher quality than they ever had with American castings….and have had fewer problems with them. I can tell you the casting quality has a much better appearance. Eric Wiengartner also stated the new Chinese castings are better than previous AFR castings. I will take pictures of my actual 195 heads later, but for now, here are some pictures of the Enforcer heads that look very much like my heads, except for all the CNC machine work, and Eliminators include studs and plates. The finish on these heads are less rough, i.e. smoother, and honestly look higher quality.

SIDE NOTE: These Enforcer heads are a great value, considering they include all the quality parts and assembly that AFR has always provided. They are roughly $800 less than the 195 Street Eliminators, depending on options you choose. Their "as cast" intake, exhaust and combustion chambers obviously effect the flow and output of the heads, but for those applications that don't need it, they are a fantastic choice. They propably would have been adequate for my application.....but, I am sticking with the Eliminators.

Torqued Off

Okay. I fixed that. I went back from Post #1 on this thread to this post, and removed everything that bothers you about the two builders.

I get it, nobody is interested. Its my problem to deal with. So I will not be mentioning it here again.

Since we are playing politically correct here, it works both ways however, and I will use the forum tools as stated in Post #1. Infractions will be reported per the forum rules. And the Ignore List tool is to avoid reading any posts by members you do not want to read......I am using that on a member currently posting on this thread, and can add more if I feel it necessary.

And the recurring troll is getting reported and banned as fast as the moderators get to it. You can all help by reporting him as well. And certainly don't feed the sad little troll by responding to him.

OldCarBum

Jeff,
This is a great and informative thread!
Really.
Thanks for sharing what you are doing and keeping it upbeat and positive.
I’m looking forward to following along.
I’ll probably learn a thing or two, ok I’ll probably learn a ton of new stuff.
Your friend, Greg

leigh1322

Yeah I get what Jebby is sayin'
We heard about your issues.. before...
And we have all had some kind of issue with under-performing service... some worse....some not...

And it always could have been worse.
At least my son did not die when his lower ball joint came off because some **** forgot to use a cotter pin the week before.....

Quote from Lion King: "It doesn't matter anymore...It's in the past!"

But this thread has GREAT information in it.
So keep it coming!

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FLOW AND PORT VELOCITY – These are two separate things. With the same 195 cc volume, but smaller intake / exhaust port dimensions and minimum cross-sectional area, the Street heads may have better port velocity, even though the reported flow is higher on the Comp heads. It’s minimal, but relevant, and I am working to take every advantage I can toward my goal.

I believe it was Chris Straub who told me that velocity can improve torque in low RPM operations, like mine.

Eric Wiengartner flow bench test comparisons between these two heads show the flow numbers on the Street heads are BETTER than Competition heads below .500-inch lift, even though AFR advertises the opposite. But, Eric and AFR don’t flow test heads the same way. Don’t know which one is correct, and don’t care.

But it is an interesting thing that if you side with Eric’s flow tests that the Street Heads have better flow at lower lift. And low lift numbers occur twice in the lift cycle, where peak lift only occurs once. Some say that low lift numbers are more important because of that technical fact that it’s the sum of the air at all points the valve is open that matters, not just at its peak.

It’s only over .500 lift that the Competition heads really work better. The cam I chose is 0.510 lift. And this is one reason I believe 195 Street heads a better choice for me.

But there is no denying that the Comp heads flow better overall….and I am not trying to argue that. I spoke with Tony Mamo directly, the guy who designed the Eliminator series, back before the first build, and he assured me the Competition heads are much better heads in every way, at every RPM, and will produce much better HP than the Street head. Eric Weingartner told me the same thing. EXCEPT I do think much of this is based on full throttle, high flow rate, high RPM use of the engine. And you know what I think about that.

It was interesting when I was talking with Eric Weingartner he told me he has NO DATA on part throttle operations and is not something he considers. Wow! That’s useful on a street engine! It seems the world of engine information is biased towards and measured by full throttle, high RPM racing performance. Nothing else matters to them. But oddly enough I don’t believe most C3 Corvette owners operate in that world. I know I don’t. And so, once again, my decisions differ from the masses. It does matter where in the RPM band you want to operate, and how you get the best performance possible there within that band.

In any case, possible better low lift flow, and better port velocity are several of many reasons 195 Street heads a better choice form me, versus the 195 Comp heads.

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INTAKE PORTS – Assuming good intake manifold and head designs are chosen, it makes sense to me that the best intake flow happens when the intake track and outlet of the intake manifold closely matches the inlet of the head. It should become one continuous well-designed track from carb to valve, so when the intake valve opens, atmospheric pressure pushes a nice big slug of air smoothly into the cylinder with minimal restriction. If there is a mismatch, and there likely will be, a slightly smaller intake manifold outlet going into a larger head inlet is acceptable, whereas the opposite is not.

The 195 Street heads do have intake port dimensions that match close to the Edelbrock RPM intake manifold ports (Felpro 1205), whereas the 195 Comp heads ports are larger (Felpro 1206) and better suited for the port sizes of larger single plane intakes. This tells me the 195 Comp heads were an improper match to the RPM intake from the start. Conversely, the 195 Street heads are a better match to the RPM intake. The RPM manifold is only slightly smaller in height and width, than the head port dimension.

When I assemble the new intake to the engine, I will be carefully checking the fit on the intake to head angles, alignment, verifying gasket positions and size, installing the correct thickness and size gaskets carefully, and using the right sealant, all around, both sides, with great care to make sure I do NOT have any leaks again. And even though Felpro says to use no gasket sealant, I call BS on that and will be sealing the ports all around, and on both sides. Actually, I keep referring to Felpro gaskets here, but AFR makes their own gaskets that fit perfrect to their heads, and I will use them.

The key point is that I am matching the right intake manifold to the right heads with the right gaskets, and then properly sealed. The right heads are AFR 195 Street Head.

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EXHAUST PORTS – Common sense to me is that ideally, exhaust port outlet dimensions should match the inlet of the headers. If the header inlet is bigger than the head outlet port, that is acceptable, but the opposite is not. A smaller header inlet is just an obstruction to flow. Again, I am not claiming to be an expert, but it’s common sense.

Fact is, the exhaust ports on the 195 Street heads are also slightly smaller in dimensions than the 195 Comp heads, and better match the openings in my StainlessWorks 1-3/4 inch headers. Another reason 195 Street heads are better for me.

Unfortunately, the StainlessWorks header exhaust opening is still SMALLER than the cylinder head exhaust port in width, even on the Street heads, by a noticeable amount. There is a flat portion along both sides that are direct obstructions to flow. Common sense would suggest this is not good for flow. In height, the headers are TOO tall, and the area above and below the port is essentially lost and useless. This is because StainlessWorks over-squeezes the pipes in width, I suppose to provide more bolt clearance. They are narrow in width and overly tall, which happens when you form a round tube into a rectangle instead of a square.

The Solution and Slight Out of Sequence Sidetrack to the Story, but fits here now…

So… I bought a new set of 1-3/4-inch American Racing Headers to replace the 1-3/4-inch StainlessWorks headers. At the flange ARH forms the pipes into more of an almost-square and is a perfect match to the almost-square outlet of the AFR heads. Before I ordered them, I spoke with Nick, the owner of ARH about this, giving him the exhaust outlet dimensions from the heads, and he promised his header will not obstruct flow. And in fact, the measured inlet of the ARH headers IS slightly larger than the outlet of the heads, like they should be, with no flat surface restriction to flow. Great, except for the cost of buying ANOTHER set of expensive parts. The StainlessWorks headers will be for sale to help offset that additional expense.

The almost-square design does make the bolt clearance tight, requiring special fasteners and tools, but ARH cleverly creates small and smoothly transitioned indentations at the bolt locations to provide more clearance, without obstructing the flow at all internally. Smart thinking and a vast improvement over the StainlessWorks headers. They also provide small head bolts that look like they would work well, but I may use the ARP step down reduced diameter exhaust studs and small nuts recommended on this forum to make it work best. We’ll see. Studs have the additional benefit of not abusing the threaded holes in an aluminum head.

Any smaller headers, like 1-5/8 inch, as has been suggested for my combination, would have certainly disrupted flow from the almost-square 195 Street head exhaust ports, and simply makes no sense, no matter what happens downstream from the port. If smaller headers are what I needed, then smaller heads are what I needed. And nobody agreed with that. But anyways, that is irrelevant, it’s done, I bought them, and I am not debating it.

The key point is that I am matching the right header to the right heads. Again…the right heads are AFR 195 Street Heads.

I really wanted these ARH headers on the first build. In fact, I had bought them for the first build, but when I installed them, they really had fitment issues with the transition pipes that came with them. I had some back and forth with ARH about it, and finally the decision was made to ship them back for refund. At the time, I was frustrated with their excuses about it, claiming “tolerance” issues with the Corvette frame. So back then I thought the solution was to buy StainlessWork headers,……and ended up again with the same problems. Had I known I was going to have to build custom transition pipes with the Stainlessworks headers, I would have just kept the ARH headers and made custom pipes for them. Interesting point – ARH no longer sells the transition pipes at all, because they said there is too many problems with fitment, aftermarket transmissions, etc….so you have no choice but to fabricate custom bends, and all you get is the connector adapter now.

Otherwise the ARH headers are a work of art, with beautiful welding and mandrel bends. I like how they designed the bends, and much different than others. The ARH headers provide better clearance on the steering box and the idler arm.…but, do come closer to the starter, so I may add a heat shield to the starter. Unfortunately, I will have to get new custom transition pipes to the exhaust given the different header routing, well as the connector style. It’s another problem to resolve and spend money on. Yeaaaa! I will be using my original 2.5 inch mandrel bent StainlessWorks under-car exhaust and free flowing, awesome sounding muffler. Check them out here....they don't have JPEG images of their exhaust I can post here, so here is a link to their website.

https://americanracingheaders.com/pr...8-1972-headers

Both StainlessWorks and American Racing headers are uncoated stainless, very high quality, and I have had ZERO heat problems with them. I have NO excess heat under the hood, or in the cabin of my car anywhere, which is amazing given the left header collector is literally less than six inches from my right foot on the gas pedal.

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FINAL DECISION

For all the above posted reasons, I chose new AFR 195 Street heads rather than keeping the AFR Competition heads I had on the first engine.

The Comp heads were coked with oil on the tops of the valves and the combustion chambers, and required to be completely disassembled, cleaned and reassembled. And of course, they were a big part of the value of the price I had on the engine for sale. The Competition heads today are $2800, with Street heads at $2100. The engine without heads would have been harder to sell and less value.

Most importantly, I believe the Competition heads are designed and better suited for high RPM / racing, and the listed factors above were all compromises for my intended use. Their benefits were not my benefits, and in fact were compromises. They were simply not the right choice for my engine in my car for the way I drive.

The key point is that the combination of the right intake system matched to the right heads matched with the right exhaust system is what matters in making these choices, to produce your desired performance goal. And of course, the cam has to match as well.

COMPRESSION RATIO – With the 65cc combustion chamber volume, matched with the -16cc piston volume, and a 0.041 Felpro head gaskets, my static compression should be around 10.1:1. The previous engine was at 10.5:1, so I will have slightly less compression. I will talk more about Dynamic Compression Ratio with the cam details in a later post.

HARDWARE - I will be using ARP head bolts. I did consider studs, because I want to do everything I can to minimize possible head bore distortion at the bolt locations. Studs provide no twisting forces into the block, only clamping forces. But the final decision was based on the recommendations that whatever the machinist used when torque plate boring / honing the cylinders, that is what you should use to bolt on the heads. CNC Motorsports uses bolts, so I will use bolts.

The PAC 8017 valve springs that come with the Street heads are the right tension for the OEM roller valve train I intend to use…confirmed with Mike Jones.

I chose the angle plug version again, because they worked very well on the first build with lots of plug wire boot clearance. I use NO boot shields…and have never burnt a wire or boot.

I also believe these Street heads appear to have a better oil return path across the bottom of the heads, past the outer head bolt, and down into the drain back holes on both ends, than the Comp heads did. The Comp heads start out with the same earlier design base casting as the 210cc and larger heads do, whereas the Street heads are a different casting shared now with the 180cc heads. The casting finish is much smoother. Given my previous oil problems, I see this is one more advantage for better oil return flow. I will also be verifying that the oil drain back path from head to block is wide open and conducive to flow.

I considered the idea of having CNC Motorsports disassemble and check the valve job/seal on these new AFR heads…. and asked them about it, but Chris said they have never had issues with them and don’t recommend wasting the money. Eric Weingartner was not as 100% confident about "never" having valve seal issues, but he said it is very rare and did not think it was necessary. So, I bought them assembled. I could try to leak check them with gasoline but may or may not bother. I know some “experts” claim you should never use assembled heads, and should disassemble and check everything, but I am going to have confidence in AFR, the best cylinder head manufacturer on the planet. Hope I don’t regret that.

augiedoggy

I run these "enforcer" castings (sold to me as 190s) and I have been happy with them. Mine were not machined or loaded by AFR though which would be a good value for someone who doesnt want to learn or mess with assembling themselves as I did. (I did have my local machineshop recut my exhaust valves and check them over for me) There are many vendors and people like skip white that have been selling them for years because they work VERY well. I spent almost a year reading up on them on many threads forum videos ect. before purchasing.

These are direct Knockoffs of the design stolen from dart pro platinum series (also great heads) but most parts are clones or knockoffs of these older designs so its kind of a moot point.

OMF

CorvettePassion....

Very interesting post....We both will have the same heads, and the same pistons, although my pistons are for 5.7" rods.....it was a smoking deal I couldn't resist compared to the 6" rod pistons. I used a Fel pro 1010 head gasket .039"

GordonR

My research has led me to the same set of heads and intake for my Dart build. AFR also seems to be the only company that publishes MCSA (min cross sectional area) for their heads online under "description" which has made it real convenient to load information in my software to come to some good conclusions. There is an issue though that shows a 25 lb ft tq dip at 3200 rpm. Increasing the MCSA from 1.92 sq in (195 street head) to 2.10 corrects the issue or using a 210cc competition head which is too large for my build. I've read a few threads on Speed Talk about this very issue. So I have been playing phone tag with Scott at AFR for few days to to get his take on it. I am interested in your cam selection though to see if you may be in the same boat.

Torqued Off

That's cool.

Cam selection......one of my hated topics, because frankly, there are few people on forums who side with my idea of cam selection. Forum member Leigh has been one of the few people who not only routinely agrees with me, he has provided exensive written and graphic documentation, showing actually desktop dyno comparitive charts based on my actual selections and details, .....and when he does, the race boys go silent. They just either make no comment, or come up with some BS to minimize it....which doesn't work for me.

The numbers clearly show the torque gains with less duration. which should be no surprise to anyone who understands the science of it. The factual reality of overlap is completely based on the real and factual efficiencies created by higher RPM......and yes, larger total HP is as result, but only at the higher RPM.

With all other factors being equal, there is no "magic trick" that with more duration, that you also get more torque in the low range. Power is given up at the bottom end, as a result the reduced cylinder pressure being bleed off with the overlap, so that the high RPM efficiences of the overlap work like they do.. Its pretty simple really.

In my case, where I am intentionally avoiding the higher RPM, those peak HP number are irrelevant. ALL engines would be built with low duration cams if the goal was to produce maximum torque and HP at low RPMS. Real racing requires BIG HP numbers to win races, I certainly am not denying that. But the sacrifice is low end power, for which is irrelevant in racing. The same applies to barstool bravado, and serves to sooth the egos of of barstool car guys.....no matter the real cost to performance on the streeet. I think that is PATHETIC, and it offends people that I think that, say it, and write it on forums. Then I get lectured about it because I am not ":happy enough" or lining up with todays PC standards. How about people just sticking with the facts and let the cards fall where they may. Used to be called "the truth".

Here is the cam I am using, and I will be adding the discussion post soon.

Mike Jones Billet Hydraulic Roller Custom Cam - PN HR69340-70340-111- 268 / 272 Total Duration, 220 / 224 @ 0.050, 111 LSA .510 /510 lift with 1.5 ratio rockers.

GordonR

I will spend some time looking at your setup tonight. Technically the timing of the lobes are what's mostly important more over the duration within reason.

djquik1

I may have missed this but are you going fuel injected or carb?

Port match an Edelbrock performer intake to those heads if you are looking to maximize your torque in the midrange would be my suggestion on a Carb set up

OldCarBum

I wanted my engine to make power in the low to mid rpm range and still be able to drive on a nice road trip.
We accomplished it pretty well.

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That information is coming soon to this thread.....but until then, its a Holley 750 Street HP double pumper carb, and I will discuss the intake in my next detailed post..

If you are suggesting the low height, straight Performer PN 2101, and not the RPM, then it would take serous porting to match these heads. My research shows that porting an intake one inch into the intake like you are suggesting is ineffective, and does very little. In this case, this sudden increase in cross sectional area would just slow down the air the had been speed up by the smaller intake track ahead of it. Its a mismatch.

The entire intake track of an intake, from the carb flange to the intake valve, must be properly designed and formed to deliver the right airflow to a much larger cylinder head port (more importantly the minimum cross sectional area of the the head port). Its done all the time, but that doesn't mean it is the correct thing to do or actually works. The real solution is matching the proper intake to the proper head, not some bandaid theoretical attempt to "fix" an improper match.

In my case, to use a Performer intake, the proper solution would to replace the 195 heads with 180 heads....and I am not doing that on a 400 cubic inch engine.