drspencer

'71 350/270

My control valve is not only leaking, but also has some slop where it joins the pitman arm. I suspect this may be the cause of my long-standing issue of a back-and-forth shimmy/vibration at ~60MPH.

I've heard nothing but positive results on Borgeson steering upgrades, but someone recently told me that it will widen my steering radius, making tight parking lot turns, 3--point turns, etc. more difficult. Can anyone speak to this?

Is there anything Folk's don't like about a Borgeson steering box?

Thanks

gjohnson

The price for some,but its all positive

Piersonpie

Price, especially in the last couple of years.

Installation, you have to shorten your steering column to get it in. This does eat up some of the columns ability to collapse, making the car less safe in an accident.

Some people report that it feels “overboosted,” you can find a thread on fixing that here.

That being said I will still be getting one for my car eventually.

4-vettes

The issue you report isn't true. It does not change the turning circle of the car.
I do not run one as I am a rare one that likes the factory setup.
Some claim a "To light" feeling in the steering. This can be overcome, but it's expensive.
I know a couple people personally that have it in there car's. They love it. Claim it transformed there car.
I had a similar shimy in my car awhile back. I tryed everything under the car. Including a replacement powersteering control valve. (Which was horrible). In the end the issue of my front end shake turned out to be twisted yokes in my half shafts in the rear of the car!
InstallIng a Borgeson maybe a nice modification. But no guarantee that it is going to fix your shimmy. A bit of play in the factory control valve is normal when the car is not running. It tightens up under pressure.
if it's leaking a rebuild kit is a fraction of the price of a Borgeson conversion.

Mooser

I've looked at doing the conversion a couple of times. I've rebuilt my stock box and have no real complaint other than the nest of hoses there, but I also have a hydroboost and a cooler for the steering pump so some of them are my own doing... The real issue I have is that there's other places I could spend what's now well over a $1000 dollars
M

drspencer

So, today I brought my '71 to a well-known Corvette Resto shop to get an evaluation regarding body work, paint, etc. (spoiler alert: it's expensive to have a car painted).

While there, we had the car up on a lift. Here are some observations, regarding my suspension and my 60MPH shimmy complaint:

-Lower control arms were replaced at some point in the car's life. They just look too 'new', compared with everything else.
-Ball joints are original.
-Idler arm is also a replacement. We did not disconnect it from the drag link to accurately assess its condition, but they felt it was an unlikely candidate for problems.
-Power steering control valve had lots of visual play/slop where it bolts to the Pitman arm. This was easily seen by grabbing a front tire and turning it back and forth. The staff cringed at the amount of slop and said this was the most likely source of my complaint (please know that the car was not running during this diagnostic). I wonder if the control valve would become firm and lose its slop when 'energized' with the car running. Regardless, I trust their judgment.

I actually have the rebuild kit for the PS control valve and cylinder. The shop said that they have never had good luck rebuilding control valves, saying that they all almost always leak. I've heard this echoed on this Forum, as well. Surprisingly, they said I should just buy a new control valve, as opposed to a Borgeson steering box. This is the first time I've ever heard anything negative about upgrading to a Borgeson (makes steering radius wider).

Additionally, I am now questioning whether my stock '71, 15x8 steel Rally wheels are actually lug centric, as opposed to hub centric. I brought the original spare steel wheel to a competent Tech who was just as interested as I was to find a definitive answer. On a Hunter machine, he spun up the wheel. Once using his 5-fingered lug centric adapter (lug centric balanced), and once using a conical insert that matched the wheel hub (hub centric balanced). Results were identical for each method.

I'll copy this response to other open threads on this subject, as this info may be of value to someone.

Thanks, once again.

Bikespace

I replaced many components, sometimes twice, before switching to Borgeson in my wife's 79. The good far outweighs the bad, from what I've experienced.

Installing it? I had to remove the steering column (and then repair the splines I smushed trying to collapse the column with it in place).

Running it? Only one issue. The only part that hadn't previously leaked, the stock power steering pump, after having seen what I had done to the rest of the stock power steering components, decided to **** itself within a week of installing the Borgeson system. I bought a rebuilt one at RockAuto.

The turn radius issue is a non issue. Yes, if you add the Ridetech brace (highly recommended), you will somewhat limit your extreme left hand turns. But so what? You'll be able to steer with your finger, if you want*. How often are you in a parking lot where that matters?

* Steering too light after the conversion? This thread has a fix for that. Be sure to check your alignment, and add more caster, too.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...geson-box.html

drspencer

Those are my thoughts, as well. I've heard nothing but positive responses from everyone who has upgraded to a Borgeson.

I'm pretty much sold, just need to start gathering install info, trick, tips, etc.

Does adding a Borgeson require a realignment? I hope not, my car tracks exceptionally well.

Thanks

Bikespace

You should check your alignment anytime you do something like this. You can use your pre-swap numbers. If you use the Borgeson adapter at the end of the drag link, you will almost certainly need to adjust your toe and steering center. Adding caster will help tighten up the steering a bit, and it's tough to get too much on these cars.

drspencer

Excuse my ignorance, but after adding a Borgeson, can I get away with just a front wheel alignment? Or do I now need a need a 4- wheel alignment?

Thanks

4-vettes

Doing this won't affect the rear. So if your rear is good. You should be fine with just a front wheel alignment.

3X2

I know I am in the minority and I've read the "I've done it with no problems" replies but, something about beating the steering shaft shorter to make it fit bothers me. Too much of a chance to damage the column. Personally, IF I were to do the conversion, I would have the shaft shortened ad resplined.

Bikespace

Not to worry, I did exactly that. Mostly

I tried to shorten the shaft in the car, then removed the column, put it in a vise, and shortened the shaft. Then, I resplined the column with a Dremel, to fix the damage I had done (just a few splines, really). I replaced the lower column bushing for good measure.

Any looseness in the steering column is in the tilt mechanism, not in the shortened section. But if you have a way to do what you propose, I'd love to see that documented! My understanding is that requires a complete column rebuild. It would be a good opportunity to tighten up the tilt mechanism, though.

drspencer

I'm getting ready to do a Borgeson on my '71. I also can't help but think now would be the time to upgrade to a Tilt/Tele.

Are you suggesting that shortening the column to accommodate the Borgeson will be more difficult on a Tilt/Tele? I'm also sensing that even under best conditions, a shortened Tilt/Tele column may still have residual slop in the upper column?

Additionally, I like the idea, and look, of the Tilt/Tele, but I cant's help but think that I would only adjust it to exactly where my standard non-tilt column sits now. I have no complaints regarding the comfort & position of the standard, straight column. I am imaging, for me, the only advantage of converting to a Tilt/Tele would be having the ability to raise it, allowing me to exit the car easier. Can anyone speak to this?

Thanks

TommyFox

You are being paranoid. Always lube these parts before attempting. Lubed with Kroll oil ,shaft slid easily with a rubber mallet tap. Use the factory part that slides on the shaft spline at the top not the one supplied by Borgenson.

Use these fittings. The copper inserts are junk and leak (on some).https://www.summitracing.com/parts/c...ol?seid=srese2

GTR1999

Some have emailed me for comment so I will give only my opinion. I am not trying to sway or sell anyone anything.

I have been custom building the original boxes for decades and done correctly with machined bushings they outperform new Saginaw boxes of the era. The same box was used on both power and manual steering. The power steering is really just power assist, not full-on power same as used on other GM cars of the period. With good parts the steering is very good, the problem is with the imported parts of the ps system today, some work and some don't. Original Saginaw parts worked. My original 72 control valve and hoses NEVER leaked from 1972 to the day I replaced them just as part of an overhaul. The valve I rebuilt using the 2 kits that were sold at the time worked fine because it wasn't a worn out core to start with. The hoses just worked, laying them over the originals I saw they had different radius in the steel line and were a little shorter.

I have seen the Borgeson Jeep box conversion for years, it is a good set up. I would never use one myself. I don't like cutting or collapsing the column- depending on if it's going into a 63-66 or 67-82. I don't like their rag joints. I don't like the larger size, especially if it's in a BB car. I don't like the fact you need to brace it so it doesn't rip the frame, and I can custom build a stock box for less than the cost of a Jeep box. Again, it's not a bad box, I just never had a need for one. The faster ratio aspect between the two: with a dialed in box there is no lost motion on high lash, none. I don't need a faster box, I am not road racing. GM had faster boxes for the corvette, they only used them in 5 cars, anyone know which ones? I blueprinted one of them.

I think the best example of what I am saying is about 10+ year ago a customer came in with a "CF poster car". Meaning it had every fade, gimmick, popular addition that was talked about at the time. It included a Jeep box. I asked how he liked it, and he hated it. I was surprised to hear that but to each his own, he said it was too fast for his liking. Now there's probably 100's who will say the opposite, this is not meant to start a debate, just an example of one in use.

I love my blueprinted boxes in both my manual & factory PS cars, I will spend the money on something else before I did that, but that's me. Good luck

leigh1322

I am doing the Borgeson conversion.
Note that I am beginning with a manual steer BB, so I need to buy everything one way or the other.
I also spent 27 years racing, autocrossing and Pro-Solo.
During that time I had Tom Lee build me a blue-printed Nascar level racing PS box for my Z28.
That box was amazing!
Now GTR does an amazing job blue-printing the original C3 box, It is the same if MS or PS.
This box runs on grease, not PS fluid, and believe me mine got awfully hard and dried out after 50 years, so my stock box was shot, and loose as a goose.
4" of wobble at the steering wheel, each way.
Bone dry hard grease inside the box.
I could have gone that way, and I would have had GTR blue-print my box, because I know the benefits, but I would have spent as much buying all the PS parts, and I heard mostly horrible reviews on the parts available now. So a leak free Borgeson is the obvious mod for me. If you are starting with OEM PS, maybe not.

Now the stock PS C3s I have driven, had more steering effort/feel than I expected. They are actually pretty good if all the parts are in good shape and do not leak.
I drove a Borgeson car, and it felt basically similar. I tried to measure the force but we had some issues. I will try again.

But both of those setups left me wanting the feel of vs my old Nascar box. So I have sent my Borgeson box to Turn One to have it revalved. It will be approximately 60% stiffer than either a stock C3 PS or a Borgeson box. Should be similar to a Viper or a new Z06/ZL1.

Both of those are two-hands-on-the wheel cars. It is just a little too stiff to one hand it. But the feel and tire feedback is fabulous. That is my target. It is not for everybody, but I am particular, with my racing background.

I also checked into the ratios.
After looking at this I realized a stock Borgeson box with it's 12.7 ratio, did quicken the C3 steering. And if you use the fast PS holes in the steering arm, the overall ratio is faster than a Z06. It may be TOO FAST. And that may be uncomfortable to some. Especially with the light feel of the borg unit vs the Z06. Several road racers have found such and use the std setting and liked it better.

My recommendation there would be to ONLY USE the SLOW or MANUAL STEER HOLES in the steering arms with a Borgeson. The ratio that way will be about the same as a stock box set on fast. Using the Fast holes could easily make it too twitchy.

Steering ratios expressed as Wheel Turns Lock-to-Lock:PS Turns Lock to Lock

70 Camaro manual 6.2

70 Z28 manual 4.1

Old Pickup PS 4.0

70 Chevelle PS 3.5

07 Odyssey Minivan 3.5

C3 Std 3.4

S10 Extreme 3.25

C3 Fast 2.9

08 CTS FE3 2.75

C3 Borg Std 2.7

1980 Z28 2.6

2015 Z06 2.5

2015 Viper 2.5

C3 Borg Fast 2.3

On the Borgeson Brace. I do not believe it is necessary on a normal car. It is just something else to sell. Unless....

The stock PS put a lot of force on that lower ram "bracket" where the ram attaches to the frame, and that is a known weak spot, and the frame cracks there on race cars and even some street cars. If you go to a Borgeson, or MS. you can weld up that big access hole which weakens the frame there. The 3-4" hole is only there so you can access the loose bolts/nuts for the ram bracket. In Chevy's Power Book they recommended welding it shut, way back in the 60s. Unless you have an NCRS car, put some nut-serts in the frame, and weld it up, even if you have OEM PS steering. Dumb place for a hole in the frame.

That Ridetech Bracket was developed during the 48 Hour Corvette build. They put L88 flares and 315 slicks on all four corners of that car. And found flexing at the frame by the box. So would a stock box. But guess what, they never welded the hole shut. So my opinion is that bracket is overkill on 95% of conversions. The turning force is going to be 4" below the frame, whether it is at the pitman arm, or the PS ram bracket. Just weld up the stupid hole, that is the real fix. Or don't pull 1.3Gs often with 315 slicks on 12 inch wheels and you'll be just fine.

drspencer

When doing a Borgeson on a stock C3 power steering, non-Tilt/Tele car, do you get a choice of using a new rag joint or U-Joint, or are you required to use the U-Joint, depending on how well things fall into place?

Which is preferred, and why?

Thanks

Bikespace

I haven't tried shortening a standard column, so I don't know if it's easier or not. I have the telescoping fully extended, and almost never use the tilt, so the tilt-tele does nothing for me, except proving another location for steering slop, the tilt hinge. The tilt helps if I have to get under the dash, but the 14" wheel makes in and out pretty easy. I've thought about getting a standard column, but the correct answer is to rebuild my tilt-tele column to fix the hinge slop.

drspencer

When I do the Borgeson, I imagine I'll take the column right out of the car.

How much of a headache is it to rebuild a standard, non-Tilt column? How do evaluate the column to assess if it even needs to be rebuilt?

Thanks