Ok some of you should like this.
I am going to modify my unused & unopened Borgeson box to increase the steering feel.

I became concerned after hearing many reports that the borgeson box felt very "light" from several C3 owners. So I dug deeper.

You see I had a very competitive Pro-Solo car back in the 80s/90s and the Saginaw 800 box it had was highly modified by Tom Lee of Lee Power Steering. He basically gave me a Nascar box back. It was firm and had amazing feel. One of the main things they did was change the torsion bar inside. That is the main ingredient that changes the "feel" from little finger only; to two hands on the wheel. Felt better than rack and pinion or a manual box. And more consistent. And I have raced both. Tom Lee was the one who practically invented race car power steering 40+ years ago. Reducing the flow or the psi is a commonly tried method to alter the "feel". Lee and PSC both say that is just a band-aid, and does not give the correct "feel" or pump life. Doing that can also kill the pump quickly. I heard of at least two "modifiers" who played with their PS pumps, who replaced boxes or pumps twice in a couple years. (Well they were Camaro guys). Not for me either. Do it once but do it right.

So I first called Borgeson and he confirmed the C3 box is a Delphi 600 box, and has a valve that gives around a 30 in-lb "feel"
Great starting info! .....But yep too light for me. My old racer had 46-48 in-lb.

So I called Lee and they do not handle the new Delphi boxes. (Tom has retired but the business lives on)
https://leepowersteering.com/
But... being a prior customer he gave me a referral to Sweet mfg. Who also referred me to PSC Motorsports...

(The Delphi boxes reportedly have a rack-n-pinion feel. They should, they use the exact same valve setup. They are a great upgrade even over the old '70s 800 Saginaw boxes)

https://www.pscmotorsports.com/
PSC Motorsports custom builds a lot of Deplhi 600 boxes (like the Borgeson) for the Jeep and the Camaro crowd. They also do service/rebuilds/upgrades.
Everybody has their specialty.
Borgeson adapts the Jeep Cherokee box for our car, and does the same for the 57 Chevy and many others. They do not even rebuild or service the boxes.
Sweet mostly manufactures parts.
Tom Lee and PSC do custom blue-printing/rebuilds but Lee only does the old style GM 800 boxes
PSC does both.

So after a little discussion with PSC tech I am going to send mine in for a upgrade & test. He has not done a C3 box yet but said it looks exactly like the Jeep box, except for the welded on mounting bracket.
They will upgrade the torsion bar from a .195" dia to a .220" The .195" is stock in the Jeep Grand Cherokee and is one of those light valves that give you one finger steering. Either 25 or 30 in-lbs. I am looking for a 35% upgrade. Cost is just $225

PSC has the torsion bars in .195/.210/.215/.220" and more. .220" is the strongest one they recommend for the street.
He says his recollection is the .220 was what the IROC Z28 used, which had the best steering feel of any GM car with recirculating box PS decades. My recollection from Tom Lee is that was a 36 or 38 in-lb box.

My race car had a much stiffer one and neither I, nor PSC, would normally recommend anything that stiff for the street. At least not without caution. You could though, my 48 in-lb torsion bar box had the heft of a good firm manual steering, even with sticky 11" DOT 0 rated autocross tires. But that firm feel never varied, whether in a parking lot manuver or at 140+ mph. It felt "correct" in a "stiff" car. I know there are manual box "fans" on here, but I will never go back to a manual box again after experiencing that one. But neither do I want one finger PS, like a "Jeep", in my C3! So it's mod time!

PSC will replace the torsion bar and test the turning psi for me. If it is not the 40psi I want they will try another torsion bar. My math thinks the .220" will be very close the first time. That will "feel" 38% stiffer when you turn the wheel than a stock Jeep box or a C3 Borgeson box.

I will keep you posted!

New Borgeson box going in for surgery & a valving update

If you look on the end of the shaft, you can just see the little "bump" that is the end of the torsion bar. That is what turns the "assist" on or off.

 

Nice project Leigh! Looking forward to hearing your results. I'm happy with my Borgeson conversion but I can see where someone who was into auto-crossing or otherwise liked to drive hard might think it was too light.

Too bad you're not closer. Would love to compare my stock Borgeson with your modified one when you get it done.

DC

 

I like the way mine feels overall. It could be a little stiffer maybe...but has good on center feel. I'm using the fast ratio holes on the steering arms, a smaller steering wheel and increased caster...so all of that helps.

Looking forward to your results....should be nice!

JIM

 

I had an iroc Camaro and it did have a good feel. Nice project.

 

Thanks for the interest. As far as I know no one else here has pushed the envelope here this far.

On my race car I originally had no feel in the power steering and 3 inches of slop on-center. And it wasn't in the box. A box blue-printing helped only slightly. What I wound up with was a car with lightining quick reflexes, and terrific communication to the fingertips as to what the tire tread was doing.

Solid a-arm bushings helped, lower profile tires, 10 inch wide wheels, a delrin rag joint, etc.. That car responded to as little as 1/8" of wheel movement. The one item that helped the most was the stiffer torsion bar in the box. I learned to drive with ten fingertips on the wheel, no palms. The 46 in-lb torsion bar gave just enough resistance that I could feel any slight change in tire grip at 1.1 G as a movement / deflection in my finger tips. I could feel the limit approaching, and then sliding away. Holding a car in a 15 degree drift right at the limit of tire adhesion requires excellent tactile feedback in the steering. The closest feel I can compare it to is a go-cart, if you have driven one of those. But better. A strong PS unit dulls or even completely eliminates this "feel". That is why so many guys prefer the feel of a manual steer C3. I get that. But I am also un-willing to compromise on the low speed parking issues of a manual box. I intend to have the best of both.

I would like my C3 to have say at least 75% of that steering "feel". Maybe similar to an 80s IROC or slightly better. That had one of the firmest steering wheels I have ever driven. Porsches and Lotus cars "have-it" but they are much lighter cars. They do not need PS. I actually refused to buy a CTS-V because the steering feel was non-existant and limp, although otherwise it was a hell of a car. I have to admit I had the same experience in a 2008 Corvette. Closer but still not quite what I am looking for. Not enough feel or character. Bought this one instead.

The character of this C3 is a firm riding car experience, not a boulevard cruiser. All my steering inputs will be tuned until they are moderately firm. Not limp, but not strong arm stiff. Manual steering is out, as well as stock PS, and stock clutch. Shocks are adjustable QA-1s. My car needs a HD clutch so it will be a dual-disc just for the reduced (but still firm) effort. All the controls need to have the same effort as a stock Hurst-shifted Muncie. Firm but precise. I have a target, so it'll get there!

 

All sounds extremely interesting. I'll be following along!

 

Oh, and that Delrin rag joint. that sounds very interesting indeed. is something like that available for our C3's?

 

That's awesome! Will be following very closely for your results. I have been through a couple of stock power steering pumps, and I am running the Heidts valve. I actually have an electric power steering pump that I am going to install as my next project. I'm sick of issues with the stock pump, both with the pump itself leaking and with difficulty keeping belts on it at high RPM - though I've had pretty good success with that since swapping to a solid (not ribbed) and slightly narrower 10a v belt, combined with underdrive pulleys. The electric pump should also free a few horses.

I am using a u joint instead of the rag joint, and the feel is hugely better than stock, but I would certainly love it to be a bit heavier and have a bit more feel. It's great, but could always be better.

Assuming this works as you hope, will they sell the parts separately to do this? Bit of a hassle for me to get them to do it for me when I'm all the way over here in Australia.

 

Following along.

 

Box is now in TX.
I have asked them to psi test both before and after.
Will report back.

 

Another good analysis and plan Leigh. IF I ever want to get rid of my manual steering, I will be happy to know that you are working on a replacement that I could live with.

 

Watching with interest. Will admit however. Not interested in a Borgeston box. Certainly not interested in manual steering. But perhaps maybe there is something I can take away to help my Chevrolet power steering. So far I learned about a better rag link. but when I asked, no answer. The factory ram style power steering maybe a bit vintage. But I'm willing to bet 30 years from now when I'm 90 plus. I'll still get parts. Aftermarket stuff sold 15 years ago, well, for the most part not only are there no parts. but the company's are gone.

 

Its a borgeson steering box... It might help you to know its the exact same OEM box as found on thousands of jeeps for many years. Literally the same box and guts just different mounting tabs. Theres even a free blueprint on the internet to have your own cnc mounting adapters made to use a regular jeep box and components. So your concerns about finding replacement parts at reasonable costs 30 years from now are honestly more likely to be an issue with the chevrolet version than these.
I already couldnt find a new OEM th350 c3 slip yoke due to them being discontinued by spicer..

 

The delrin rag joint i had custom made. Just cut a disc to replace the rag joint. Could be done on a C3 as well. The problem on my Z28 was it was almost dead straight but aligning the steering column was a pain due to binding issues. On my C3 I am much more likely to just go with a metal u-joint. That would be very direct and eliminate any potential binding issue. It may put more annoying vibrations into the steering wheel though. If so I will try a double thickness rag joint, did that too. I did not find it very objectionable at all on my solo car. I eliminated every piece every piece of rubber in the suspension and steering except for the tires. That was still enough that it rode and felt OK. But then any rubberiness that I felt in the steering I knew was the tires contact patch/sidewall. Which was ideal in racing. When that started to change (get more rubbery) you were starting to lose grip. Over the edge so to speak. And it was best to know that sooner rather than later! Some call it a balancing act holding the tires exactly at their limit of adhesion. But you have to be able to feel them to do that. You don't want to go so far over that you hear the tires squeel or feel the slide in your butt-o-meter.

 

Bad news from TX.
Just got a phone call about my borgeson box from PSC Motorsports.

Although they do a lot of Delphi 600 boxes, they can not change the torsion bar in this one. It is just different enough that it won't work. They can't get torsion bars for it.

For now.....

I did however talk to the tech guy, and he will run my proposal by the owner. Maybe they could use my box as a prototype to see if they want to develop this as a new product.

I will keep you posted.

 

Apologies for digging up an old thread but this was one I had followed with high hopes. Hopefully my response can help someone else seeking better feel from their Borgeson box.

Lee Power Steering said they could rebuild it but not change the torsion bar.

Turn One can do both, plus re-gear for a faster ratio.

I just had them do all of that to my Borgeson box. They put their "standard" 39 in-lb torsion bar (Borgeson comes with a 27) and a 10:1 gear (Borgeson is 12.7:1). They offer other torsion bars too and an 8:1 gear for even faster steering. The gear change isn't cheap but I didn't want to go halfway and change my mind later on. Buy once, cry once.

Wow what a difference! All of my complaints about the Borgeson box are gone: it's tight on center, has appropriate weight, and actually has feedback now. The faster ratio is fun without being obnoxious too, should be helpful with autocross.

Not sure if you ended up doing anything with yours Leigh but this could be an option for you.

 

Thanks!!
I am glad you dug up this thread. And made more progress than I did.

I will definately be contacting Turn-One!

I am glad at least one company will do this, I struck out with the other two, they wouldn't bother.

After driving my awesome 48 in-lb Solo car, I definately do not want a stock weak 26 in-lb Borgeson box.

38in-lb would be the absolute minimum to have great feel. That is IROC level. A little stiffer than that would be ok too.

It is only a torsion bar!!!! But it is soo... important.

 

Just got off the phone with Mark at Turn-One.
Hooray they can definately do this!

They will test my box when it arrives, and then re-valve it accordingly.
Stock Borgeson is likely 27 in-lb or so. Kind of "light" but not as bad as 60s era pinky finger steering, those were like 18. (C3s were slightly heavier.)
Their standard .210" torsion bar is likely 39in-lb or so. This is what most guys with newer or older muscle cars wind up liking. Similar to a mid 80s IROC which was terrific.
My old box was 48 and I loved the even firmer feel. That required 5-10 fingertips.
They can also easily make custom torsion bars as required, and if needed.
I will direct them to push mine up into the 42-45in-lb range.
That will be 66% STIFFER than a standard Borgeson box (rebuild) valving. With 66% more steering feel. And likely TWICE as much as a stock C3.

I am excited!
Rebuild/ teardown = $400
Re-valve = $300.
Well worth it for me!

If anyone else feels their steering is too "light" this is the best fix.

Gearing:
A gear change is also possible but gets expensive.
I will keep the stock 12.7 Borgeson gear ratio, that is already much quicker than the stock C3 at 16:1
Turns lock to lock should drop from 3.5 to 3.0
That was quick enough for me in Auto-cross and pro-solo for 27 years.
​​​​​​​I never used lock to lock there anyway!

 

Can they change the gear ratio back to stock, or beyond?

The Borgeson is great in the 79 (and sounds like it could be even better), but still a bit twitchy for my taste. Great for Autocross though. I'll keep the manual steering in my 80, but this would be a great option to have on the shelf.

 

Bikespace
Can you describe the twitchiness?
In many cases this is alignment related.
I just went thru this on our family minivan.
With some new front end parts, and a new in-spec alignment, it became twitchy over 60 mph, and uncomfortable. Not bad, just not relaxed. Only on the interstate, and only over 60 mph. It has never done this before.

I had hem give it just a nudge more toe-in, still in spec mind you, and it cured it.
Stable as a rock now.

It originally was in the middle of the spec range, but it just didn't "like" it, now it is still in-spec.
Honestly they did not even know what to do about it. They just said "it's good". And it was "right down the middle"
But that is why they warranty the alignment for 90days.

I just can't imagine it is the ratio change.

Toe-out, or even not enough toe-in, will make a car "twitchy".

I used to run toe-out on my pro-solo car. It did make it turn-in faster.
But it was a "twitchy mess" on the highway, and downright dangerous in the rain.